Everyone needs to remember that this is a demo!!!! n/t

[Tomisama]

Good work CBR!

Very informative.

But marching (fully loaded) from camp to camp in a baggage train procession, and deployment on a field for battle; apples and oranges!

All I really know is what I see. Step for step, marching, double time, and charge, all viewed up close and personal, all looks very realistic to me. May just be the eye of the beholder?

I won’t pursue this anymore, but would like to hear any further comments

[Puzz3D]

Those sites CBR referenced indicate approximately 2.8 miles per hour for marching speed of Roman armies. The marching speed in MTW and RTW is 3.7 miles per hour which is faster than normal.

CA uses historical accuracy arguments to counter criticism of gameplay, and gameplay arguments to counter criticism of historical accuracy. I remember longjohn telling me that the reason he wouldn't make cavalry 10% faster in MTW was because historically cav ran at less than 15 miles per hour. Now in RTW cav is running at 22 miles per hour. What happened to the historical argument? After refusing to increase cav speed by 10% in MTW, he increases it by 50% in RTW.

[CBR]

I won’t pursue this anymore, but would like to hear any further comments

Ok some comments then

The basic Roman march speed was 100 steps/minute and quick march was 120 steps/minute. Being loaded up with equipment does not effect such marching speeds although fatigue will be greater. You can expect troops to march for hours with 100 steps/minute and highly trained can do it even faster as the links also showed.

A step/pace has been pretty much standard through the ages and is 2.5 feet (76 centimeters) but a step will be bigger if marching at very high rates (about 3 feet/91 centimeters)

Today US Marines are marching 120 steps/minute and double quick march at 180 steps/minute. Thats 91 meters/minute and 165 meters/minute. British troops before WW2 used the same except the step for double quick march were 40 inches so they did 180 meters/minute.

US Civil War infantry was to advance towards the enemy position at 110 steps and then 165 steps or greater when under fire. Only going into a run the last few yards.


I checked some Princepes and they did 120 steps/minute that should give 90 meters/minute but is actually 100 meters so they have nice long steps

So troops are always on quick march in the game which isnt that realistic. Their running speed is 250 meters/minute and thats really something no unit would be doing as they have to keep order in the formation and it would tire men quickly. Armor and shields also makes very fast movement rates difficult.

But the actual distance travelled over time is not that important for the game, its more the difference between march and double quick march. Even if we give the Romans the benefit of the doubt (and turn them all into US marines) and assume they can do 180 steps that would still only be x 1.8 the marching speed.

IMO the x 1.66 increase we had in MTW is more realistic than the x 2.5 we have in RTW demo.

CBR

[Duke John]

Great info, CBR! Do you perhaps also have info about realistic walking/running speed of cavalry? Preferable medieval ones

[Bob the Insane]

Back to the subject of this thread... I don't really understand the point being made, yes this is a demo, it is a demo of the piece of software they are releasing...

Now I don't see "Beta" writen anywhere nor any disclaimer stating that the game is only 80% complete and not representative of the final product or whatever so forgive me for assuming that what is in the demo is what we are getting...

Personally I don't remember any great difference in what was in the MTW demo and what we got in the final game (other than all the campaign map stuff obviously.. ).

P.S. Personally I liked the demo...

[The Wizard]

Threads like these are starting to annoy me...



~Wiz

[CBR]

Cavalry walk speed is about 6-8 km/h with trotting about x 2 walk speed. Most cavalry charges starts with a walk, about 3-400 meters away from the target, then goes into a trot about halfway and only the last 50 meter or so goes into a canter/gallop. Canter would be something like x 3 walk speed and gallop x 5-6 (but depends on horse and armour)

Cav walked 50% faster than standard infantry in MTW and thats realistic (with infantry standard march rate of 4 km/h) and running is x 2.2 of walk speed (so thats the trot). Canter and gallop would be faster than what we have in game but that was only done for a short distance anyway.

Edit: Anything faster than trot made it difficult to keep a close formation together.

Edit2: Cavalry in RTW demo seems to run 4 times as fast as it walking


CBR

[Duke John]

Thanks CBR!
But in M:TW we could mod the walking speed, running speed and charging speed. The charge only began some metres before the enemy. Hopefully it will be the same in R:TW so that cav can also have walk -> trot -> canter/gallop.

[SpencerH]

Ok some comments then

The basic Roman march speed was 100 steps/minute and quick march was 120 steps/minute. Being loaded up with equipment does not effect such marching speeds although fatigue will be greater. You can expect troops to march for hours with 100 steps/minute and highly trained can do it even faster as the links also showed.........

IMO the x 1.66 increase we had in MTW is more realistic than the x 2.5 we have in RTW demo.

CBR

I dont mean to threadjack any further but I thought I'd put my 2 cents in about this.

In my experience, regular inf in combat gear (which may or may not be heavier that what a legionaire would carry, I dont know) can maintain a walking pace on a road, on the flat of 3 mph for say 8 hours. On the other hand, even that leisurely pace for 20 miles will take a fatigue/morale toll of regular troops by even the second day. Every year during the Nijmegan marches, soldiers (who have trained for them) fall out when pushed with a 4 x 30 mile test (usually on the 3rd and 4th days) and thats not marching in combat gear.

Training, conditioning, and professionalism are more a factor in "forced marches". Based on my own (mis)deeds, I know that small units of professionals can march >4 but less than 5 mph in combat gear for a long day (12h) provided they have enough water (or are 'whipped') and given short breaks. Similarly, they should be able to dog trot 10 miles in 90 min.

Without roads and/or carrying 100 lb packs up and down hills 10-15 miles/day is reasonable, especially for large units.

[Duke John]

Don't worry about threadjacking. Since the threadstarter posted n/t he is not really bothered with the content of this thread.