Are the republican roman units really this weak in the game?

[Kagetora]

After playig many mods, and reading many posts, a rumor has come to my attention that the roamn units in the demo do not have the same stats as the ones in the actual game (for instance, the elite Triarii are really weak in their attack, just as low as Celtic Swordsmen). Could someone clarify that this is true or is it all just someone idea of a sick joke.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Stats are moddable...don't worry about it

[Tamur]

I'd love to hear from CA on this, but my own hypothesis is that the Carthaginian units are tilted toward the stronger for the demo. People (like myself) who play mods extensively aren't only getting the effect that was intended by CA -- to tromp the Romans. We're getting tromped AS the Romans.

For example, today I played a battle deliberately tilted toward the Roman side unit-number-wise (16 units vs. 10 Carthaginian). Same valour on both sides. The Carthaginians won, and not because I was using foolish tactics -- in fact, I took out the two units of Carthaginian SBCs before anyone, then was able to flank- and back-attack their phalanxes entirely --- no head-on attacks. Still lost with them still having a two SB phalanxes and one Poeni nearly completely intact.

And as Sasaki says, I'm not worried since that can all be changed.

[Kagetora]

"Sasaki Kojiro" I know we can mod (Quote: "Rome totalwar will be very moddable"), but modded units arn't allowed in Multiplayer, and I belong to a Roman Clan {TSOR} so I'm trying to sort out our strengths and weakness's and find a way to win with Republican units.

[Red Harvest]

After playig many mods, and reading many posts, a rumor has come to my attention that the roamn units in the demo do not have the same stats as the ones in the actual game (for instance, the elite Triarii are really weak in their attack, just as low as Celtic Swordsmen). Could someone clarify that this is true or is it all just someone idea of a sick joke.

Seems likely. The stats in the demo for triarii do not in any way match up with their strength vs. the other Roman units. They should be a strong defensive unit, not so powerful on attack, but good vs. cavalry. One of the CA folks has already alluded to this by saying that people won't want to build lots of triarii.

[Kagetora]

I thought I read somewhere that the Triarii were actually a very strong attacking unit, like a more manuverable version of a manipled phalanx, but I could be wrong. My main concern is that these early Republican units will get crushed when they face strong hopolites with heavy cav on the flanks even when they use their triple acres attack (Hastati charge first, then fall back behind the Princepes and they attack, than Triarii), because in the demo mods, the republican units can't beat a phalanx head on and can barly beat it when they attack the sides, they have to flank which is not always an option. If anything the Princepes should have their attack stats raised while the Triarii have there defence stats raised and there formation holding needs some work (in a test, Barbarian Noble Cav charged and a few horses rode strait through the formation into the rear).

[a_ver_est]

(for instance, the elite Triarii are really weak in their attack, just as low as Celtic Swordsmen).

IIRC triarii were used to protect the roman army retread, so they weren't an attacking unit. IMHO is correct a low attack stat and a good defensive stat for this unit.

[Kagetora]

But they are the elite of the early army, meaning that they are like they Varangian Guard for the Romans. When they were sent into battle, it meant that the "Decisive moment" in the battle had come, remeber that they were always the most senior troops in the army and best equipped, your telling me men like that are never used for an attack. Thats like saying that Marines are to be used strictly for home defense and the National Guard are to be used as the offensive force. It just dosn't make sense to so heavily equipe a force of elite and only use them for defense. :

[a_ver_est]

But they are the elite of the early army, meaning that they are like they Varangian Guard for the Romans. When they were sent into battle, it meant that the "Decisive moment" in the battle had come, remeber that they were always the most senior troops in the army and best equipped, your telling me men like that are never used for an attack. Thats like saying that Marines are to be used strictly for home defense and the National Guard are to be used as the offensive force. It just dosn't make sense to so heavily equipe a force of elite and only use them for defense. :

Well I am not an historian, but what I understood from my reading is that triarii were used only when the Hastati and Princepes fallen, their job were fix the enemy to let the Hastati and Princepes reorganize or withdrawal.

In other words triarii were used only when the battle was going to a desperation situation. They are the key of the roman army to avoid aniquilation.

There was a Roman adage that "matters had reached the triarii," which meant the situation had become desperate.

[The_Emperor]

The Roman term "going to the Triarii" meant that you were going to see a situation through to the bitter end.

The Triarii were the seasoned veterans whose actions would often decide the outcome of battles, they were well equipped & battle seasoned warriors.
Members of the Triarii were also chosen to be the general's bodyguard.

For a look at how good they really were just examine what happened at the historical battle for the Trebbia... The Triarii broke through the middle of the Carthaginian lines even though the battle went bad all around them. Upon seeing the battle was lost, retaining their order they marched off the field to hook up with other roman forces.

[Husar]

Still lost with them still having a two SB phalanxes and one Poeni nearly completely intact.

Maybe the republican units are not thought to face SB phalanxes, in the campaign, SB phalanxes will probably face roman legionary units, which are supposed to be better than the republican ones.

[Kagetora]

The Sacred Band we definetly around about the time of the punic wars, so they will definetly be available during the republican time.

[Catiline]

If you take a 'model' polybian army in the demo it seems very hard to use. I've laregly been using it against a Gallic warband army. That should historically give you a tough battle, and indeed it does. I've found the only way to win is to trmpt them with velites and then wait for them to attack. If you attack with hastati then principes you die, since the hastati rout too quick. If you wait for therir charge you stand a bit more of a hope.

Treating each group of units like a leigon and not as maniples seems to work better. Go for a quincunx and they rout right of the field, deploy in 3 lines and things work better.

[Red Harvest]

For a look at how good they really were just examine what happened at the historical battle for the Trebbia... The Triarii broke through the middle of the Carthaginian lines even though the battle went bad all around them. Upon seeing the battle was lost, retaining their order they marched off the field to hook up with other roman forces.

Are you sure about this? I have not seen that written and would be interested in reading that account. What I read is that the triarii held off the flankers long enough that the central legions hastati and principes broke through the center of the line at Trebbia. What you propose seems a bit unlikely. The triarii start in the rear. The triarii would have been busy trying to delay/halt Mago's ambush force from the rear, and the cavalry swarming about the flanks. I don't see how the lines could have inverted. Instead I could see some triarii falling back through the same opening fighting a rear guard. Their spears should have been sufficient to keep cav at bay, while Hannibals infantry was either broken (in center) or otherwise engaged.

Casualty information suggests the phalangites of the Carthaginian line held (positioned to the edges of the infantry formation ala Cannae), while the spanish/gauls in the center broke.

Triarii were small units 600 men each (fixed size) vs. 1200 men (and larger for emergencies) for hastati and principes.