Some explanation on why speed matters to MPers.

[Orda Khan]

I guess I wish CA had built in 2 settings, Fun and Ultra real (with real units, faction composition, unit names, and further push the old game-system for realistic AND SLOW play.)

I second that. Ultra real does not have to be boring, give me realism over poxy upgrades any day

........Orda

[Steppe Merc]

I would agree, but I'm insulted that it implies ultra real isn't fun.

[Admin]

I really like the pre battle stage too. My record is 89 minutes for 1 MP battle. And that wasn't because of lag or a potty break.

As for "a mod should get regularly tweaked/updated", this can actually be another reason why mods are so difficult to distribute.

I agree with that. Really frequent updates, having to visit a website to download it, having difficulty to install it/get rid of previous version and managing it with other mods you may have is a pain. Those files are pretty tiny though and it should be possible to distribute them almost instantly when you join a game.

A mod that changes 100% with every weekly version is not a good idea either (and yes, ideally you want to get it right with the first shot) you can gradually push it into the right direction after a quick, rough, first, significantly 'better' patch though.

Both auto downloads and constantly tweaking is something used with other games.

And Im just saying that it will take around twice as long with the maps we have in RTW and that making a speedslider to go down to say 50% will make it even longer as inf/cav would walk at half the rate we have in MTW. So just adding that to "fix" the problem without doing anything to the run speeds is not that good IMO

I understand the point. Decrease the speed to say 85% and use maps that are only 65% bigger. Create your own ideal settings to play or accept something near ideal to play with others.

I guess I wish CA had built in 2 settings, Fun and Ultra real (with real units, faction composition, unit names, and further push the old game-system for realistic AND SLOW play.)

Who knows?

Well Fatigue is another issue, but I've always thought that simple marching or standing shouldn't increase the fatigue. I know there is a level of reality to that incurring fatigue, but from a game/balance/play standpoint I think only fighting, running and severe weather should increase the fatigue.

You don't think your army is that great when you see them tiring like that, do you?

[Admin]

I would agree, but I'm insulted that it implies ultra real isn't fun.

My experience is that even the most absurd game can be great when playing with the right people (whether you play serious or just for fun). The opposite is true too.

[todorp]

Well Fatigue is another issue, but I've always thought that simple marching or standing shouldn't increase the fatigue. I know there is a level of reality to that incurring fatigue, but from a game/balance/play standpoint I think only fighting, running and severe weather should increase the fatigue.

----

CB. other than the fatigue incurred by walking, I have no prob with doubling the amount of marching/game-time for a battle... but I realize little Bobby who this game is designed for now does not have attention span for that.

I guess I wish CA had built in 2 settings, Fun and Ultra real (with real units, faction composition, unit names, and further push the old game-system for realistic AND SLOW play.)

Hey, I was thinking this and you said it :)

Big maps and normal walking speed is not a problem, that is where the fast time comes in. My units walk into position, but the time slider is fast.

I really can't accept that the units are rocket propelled, because the maps are big.

[DisruptorX]

I doubt I'm the only one who enjoyed watching my army march into battle. I love the deliberate pace of MTW that lets you admire the battle and your formations. I have never once used the pause button in MTW, yet I still am able to zoom in and watch the battle. This is unfortunately impossible in the Rome demo, which moves waaaaay too fast. The infantry are wearing full metal armour, yet run like olympic sprinters.

Killing and routing is way too fast, I can't admire battles, because usually the initial charge ends them.

As a single player TW fan, I found the pace to be unacceptably fast.

In response to Doug-Thompson: Age of Kings, however, is a cookie cutter clone of Warcraft II/Command and Conquer. It also did not change the pace from what it was in the original Age of Empires.

[Colovion]

In response to Doug-Thompson: Age of Kings, however, is a cookie cutter clone of Warcraft II/Command and Conquer. It also did not change the pace from what it was in the original Age of Empires.

so? what does that have to do with anything? Age of Kings was a rather slow paced game compared to the other games at the time - I mean when AoM came out people were up in arms about how fast the game was - and I stopped playing it largly for that reason. I've seen this thing where games that were once rather slow (or could be) were super-boosted with speed which in the end alienated their fan-base while bringing in a load of cash for the devs but leaving them with no roots to build on afterwards; mainly because the new fans are pretty temporary before they go for the next big game. "Casual Gamers" I mean.

[DisruptorX]

so? what does that have to do with anything? Age of Kings was a rather slow paced game compared to the other games at the time - I mean when AoM came out people were up in arms about how fast the game was - and I stopped playing it largly for that reason. I've seen this thing where games that were once rather slow (or could be) were super-boosted with speed which in the end alienated their fan-base while bringing in a load of cash for the devs but leaving them with no roots to build on afterwards; mainly because the new fans are pretty temporary before they go for the next big game. "Casual Gamers" I mean.

AoM is what? Age of Mythology?

Hehe, I was a fan of age of empires very temporarily too, because it was a rather stale game with atrocious a.i. and unbalanced units. When starcraft came out, I completely forgot about age of empires, and never looked back.

Age of Empires is not the same as Total War. Total War has its own system that is unique and unlike anything else. Age of Empires is an attempt to cash in on the success of others.
I can't say I've ever noticed speed changes before, but then again, I stopped playing C&C clones because there is no reason to play any of them other than starcraft.

I will, however, agree that aiming for the "casual gamer" market hurts real gamers. I have yet to see a series that was not ruined by "appealing to a broader market". If changes are successful it does not mean that "the developer will have more money to continue making games", as I have seen people here incorrectly assume. It instead means that they will continue to create dumbed down games.

[Omegamann]

I think the games actual speed is not the problem here.
It has more to do with the percieved "speed" or rapidness of combat in the demo.
As we can see marching speed is still the same, so the "with bigger maps, units have to move faster" argument only aplies if you charge an enemy or run up to an enemy across halve the map, thereby wearing his units down with fatigue (if you dont play arcade and have fatigue enabled).
The percieved "speed" during close combat is due to the increased running, charging and riuting speeds combined with the high killing factor and a greater tendency of units to rout if flanked.
These problems are not gamespeed problems but problems of unit stats and playbalancing.
As Puzz3d pointed out the game actually plays better when on arcade, as the moral problems incured by having high losses on impact and being flanked are decreased.
So lets call the problem by its propper name:
Playbalance and unit stats
I do hope that the stats we have in the demo are not finalised and are still being worked on by CA.

[shingenmitch2]

Omega ---
If the battle stats were the problem, then turning off morale wouldn't be what helps things. While I'm sure there are some imbalances with the stats, speed of killing (the chance of success per hit and killing cycle) are real issues, and Louis's point is still valid, speed of units equals lack of control and that is soley a speed issue, Yuuk was just trying out ways to help mask the problem.

2 Thoughts about increased speed and Big maps. The faster movement actually defeats 2 aspects of the game that CA is trying to promote.

1. The detail of the units and the epic scale of the game. You simply don't have time to sit back and watch this huge battle unfold OR zoom in tight and admire the great detail of the individual soldiers. This extra speed hurts a major point of this entire game.

2. The faster speed defeats the purpose of a bigger map. The point of a big map should be to give more room to maneuver. Increasing unit speed has the effect of shrinking a map. Doing both simultaneously cancels each other out. My guess is that RTW simply has bigger maps for "fitting" purposes only (fit more units in), which means they weren't considering the play aspect maps.

[Orda Khan]

2 Thoughts about increased speed and Big maps. The faster movement actually defeats 2 aspects of the game that CA is trying to promote.

1. The detail of the units and the epic scale of the game. You simply don't have time to sit back and watch this huge battle unfold OR zoom in tight and admire the great detail of the individual soldiers. This extra speed hurts a major point of this entire game.

2. The faster speed defeats the purpose of a bigger map. The point of a big map should be to give more room to maneuver. Increasing unit speed has the effect of shrinking a map. Doing both simultaneously cancels each other out. My guess is that RTW simply has bigger maps for "fitting" purposes only (fit more units in), which means they weren't considering the play aspect maps.

Spot on Mitch !
Having played the 1.12 Mod and being able to deploy armies a good distance apart, it is possible to zoom ( and I must say the close ups on the moving army are beautiful ) You have the time to do this because the marching speed is good and the maps are nice and big. Things begin to go pear shaped once the enemy is encountered, now there is no chance to get in close, or at least not until the battle is nearly done. Infantry units ( armoured or not ) simply move too fast. There are other niggles that concern me also...

The old 'double click' a unit to zoom quickly to that unit is still in the game but what is missing is the quick movement of the mouse that got you immediately to that unit. Try that now and the camera simply stops in no man's land Doesn't sound much I agree but with these huge maps that unit could be some way off, waiting for the camera to scroll over to it could mean the demise of that unit if some swift little enemy unit decides to go kill. Or if you get there on time to save your men, things have now become rushed. A nicely planned flank could end up badly timed due to the fact you daren't take your eyes off what is happening here ( all the while desperately clicking on the superfast action ) you end up not being able to execute the flank or worse, they become engaged because an enemy unit has taken the opportunity to sprint over.
I don't think it's all doom and gloom though, one thing I have noticed is a more tactical feel and that is a move in the right direction IMO. I know that I am facing the AI ( a human rusher would be quite different ) but there seems to be a case of manoeuvre for advantage and a far more patient approach to engagement. You feel less inclined to commit to all out h2h because once you do the battle will be over in no time. I fought a battle ( a very good one ) Carthage v Julii on Hard setting that lasted well over an hour. This battle had everything I've ever wanted in Total War. The armies marching, the tactical manoeuvres ( AI saw he was out manoevred and pulled back, many times ) I stripped him of his archers and Velites, peppered his infantry until I was out of ammo and throughout all this he stood firm. I finally sent in the infantry to engage his remaining units. Even with my cavalry flanking the battle was by no means won ( Hastati, Triarii and Principes are tough!! ) My Poeni infantry began to break and my one War Elephant unit decided the day. The main elements were all there I have to say, now change infantry run and charge speeds, the melee and I think we will have one fantastic game.

I do hope CA adjust commands before release....alt/right...alt/left....MTW army control was so good. I don't mind the right click command but keeping the other commands would help buy some time to admire the game and with these beautiful graphics that's a must.

..........Orda

[Colovion]

I do hope CA adjust commands before release....alt/right...alt/left....MTW army control was so good. I don't mind the right click command but keeping the other commands would help buy some time to admire the game and with these beautiful graphics that's a must.

..........Orda

True - MTW was very easy to use to control and see your troops, the command and camera were setup very well. Personally I like the right click to attack because in MTW the only thing that made me annoyed was when I was trying to attack a unit and I accidentally selected one of my own. It will just take a few small changes and this could very well be my favourite game of all time.

[Puzz3D]

I've come to believe that the running speeds of cav and inf were artificially increased for the demo. Those speeds don't seem to fit with the rate of other things that are going on in the game. For instance the relative slowness of these things: the time it takes for a phalanx to form up, the delay between issuing a movement command and the unit responding to it, the reload rate of ranged units, the walking speed, the combat resolution time for head-to-head phalanx fighting, the zooming and panning speed of the camera and the combat animations. And these observations: the apparent low fatigue for running compared to walking, the difficulty of cav catching up to routing inf before they leave the map, the jerky transition between walking and running for inf and the apparent overpowered cav charge due to the increased momentum of higher speed. To me, all these things suggest that the game was balanced for some other running speed than what is seen in the demo. I hope the speeds in the upcoming release version have been put back to the values used to balance the tactical part of the game.

[alioven]

Let's hope that "turbo" speeding Yuuki mentions was made in order to show "how well our engine can move nnn men in your average computer".

[1dread1lahll]

The small annoyance of miss-clicking when double-left clicking is VERY small compaired to the annoyance of trying to double right click (which also can not be set-up as a center mouse button control) if you are annoyed by the rare error while double left-clicking, ide rather see 'zoom to unit' just simply moved to right click, or any other non shared function. I will most like buy the game, (even though ive deleated the demo in disgust at the lack of army controls), but if their is no improvement in the controls features cut from the game, i'll not play it on-line,.and it will no-doubt join other crappy games ive got (like AOE, which lasted a whole 2 weeks on my system), as part of my beer-coaster collection. By the way, to talk of a games longeviety,.... STW is still installed on my PC,....while AOE I and II are among my better looking beer coasters.