How to treat rebels?

[Adrian II]

After beating them, you get the little screen with the three options. My reflex is to put on my Darth Vader voice and go "E-x-e-c-u-t-e", but there must be loyalty consequences, otherwise, you know, there's no point to the question. Suggestions anyone?

[USMCNJ]

kill the ring leaders.
i don't know why exactly but there was a discusion about this a long time ago.

[Tomcat]

Any chance of a link to that post USMCNJ since we Juniors cannot do searches?

Thanks
Tomcat

[Adrian II]

Any chance of a link to that post USMCNJ since we Juniors cannot do searches?

Seconded

[Ldvs]

If I remember well it had been discussed a lot and were in the table of contents, but disappeared when they moved to the new forum.

As far as I know, repeatedly killing them will results in extra dread, on the contrary, release them all will result in extra happiness.

[Sethik]

Since I have no scrupples I execute every last one of them. After a few rebellions where everyone got the axe I get a couple dread and the rebellions get less frequent after that...

[Blodrast]

ok, I don't remember the exact details, but the general idea was that:

1. kill them all will increase your dread and give your governor various VnV's; at first dread-related, and they may be quite useful; but if you keep it up, the vices will stop being useful and actually become unpleasant (I can't remember exactly what the lines of VnV's were).

2. release them all; (temporarily) increase happiness; this will also lead to your leader getting VnV's; again, short term good, long term not necessarily. I think there was another issue here about loyalty, but I can't remember it.

3. kill the ringleaders. This is the neutral one. It will NOT affect your leader, and it won't lead to him getting any VnV's whatsoever as a consequence. So if you don't want anything to change, do this.

If you do either of 1 or 2, it's a gamble. As I said, short-term it's beneficial. Long term, it becomes more of a gamble, and you know what it's like in gambling: the hours always wins

[Doug-Thompson]

The total number of people you release or kill has an effect too. If you kill 100 or so, you get some more dread. If you kill several thousand, you can get the "butcher" vice, for instance. If you kill several hundred, you can get a vice/virtue such as "scant mercy."

It's too much of a crapshoot for my taste. I just kill the ringleaders.

[Procrustes]

ok, I don't remember the exact details, but the general idea was that:

1. kill them all will increase your dread and give your governor various VnV's; at first dread-related, and they may be quite useful; but if you keep it up, the vices will stop being useful and actually become unpleasant (I can't remember exactly what the lines of VnV's were).

2. release them all; (temporarily) increase happiness; this will also lead to your leader getting VnV's; again, short term good, long term not necessarily. I think there was another issue here about loyalty, but I can't remember it.

3. kill the ringleaders. This is the neutral one. It will NOT affect your leader, and it won't lead to him getting any VnV's whatsoever as a consequence. So if you don't want anything to change, do this.

If you do either of 1 or 2, it's a gamble. As I said, short-term it's beneficial. Long term, it becomes more of a gamble, and you know what it's like in gambling: the hours always wins

This is the advice I've seen before, but I don't have any evidence to back it up. I mean, I don't see any consistent pattern with the V&V's of my governors of rebellious provinces. Either way, if this is correct then it would seem that you should alternate a couple of times - e.g. kill 'em all once or twice, and if you have more rebellions then let them all go once or twice.

I don't know if I'm right, but it seems that the first rebellion in any province is pretty small. Also, it often seems that the size of the rebellious army is partly determined by the size of your garrison, so I don't leave big garrisons in any of my rebellious provinces for long and I move big armies next door if it looks like I'm going to have a rebellion no matter what I do. When I fight the first rebellion in a province I use my governor to lead my army and I make sure to kill the first one or two prisoners I capture while still on the battle field - it will give the gov the "scant mercy" vice that comes with one dread star. (You can only do this once - there are extended vices you get from killing lots of prisoners, but they have drawbacks and are harder to get. I think one (bloodlust?) requires that you kill 1000 prisoners - luckily my rebellions haven't been that big!)

[Sethik]

I wonder what vice you would get if you slaughter all of mongol hordes once they arrive in Khazar. That's atleast 8000+ prisoners. Oh, the possibilities...

[Blodrast]

Yup, the size of a rebellion depends on the size of the garrison. The bigger one is, the bigger the other is as well.

I thought it was butcher or something, that you got after killing more than 1000 people in one single battle. But I can't remember exactly.

As for the fact that you can't see a consistent behaviour in the govs of your rebellious provinces, you should take into account several things here:

1. if by "the more rebellious provinces" you mean the Portugal, Scotland, Lithuania, Livonia, etc., well, those are coded to be more rebellious. So even if your gov has a higher dread, the default rebelliousness threshold is lower for those provinces anyway, so you may still get rebellions even with a 5-6 dread gov. Remember, one dread is +5% loyalty, which is not really that much.

(Note: by coded, I meant in the prod_unit_11.txt file, or whatever it's called. You can change their default rebelliousness by hand, of course).

2. the vice(s) they have/get from executing or not executing rebels is (are) simply one (or however many) vice (s) out of the several that your gov prolly has. So you can't expect to see very clearly the effect of only one vice, in situations where other things are taken into the equation as well.
For instance, the loyalty in the province doesn't only depend on his dread rating. He may be a super-genocide-inflicting-psychomaniac, but if you have a crappy King, which is also faaaar away from that province, and that province is really rebellious, and maybe there are some enemy spies / assassins in it as well, and you don't have enough happiness buildings.... you'll get a rebellion nonetheless.
I think you get my point.

[Procrustes]

Yes, thanks - I think I get your point.

I think you're right - blood lust comes before butcher, but I can't remember the exact requirements to get it. It's been posted before - it may pop back up.

By "rebellious provinces" I mean provinces that I'm having rebellions in, not just the ones that are programmed to rebel. As you pointed out, there are a lot of reasons that may be happening.

What I mean by consistent V&V's is that I _know_ that the first time I kill a couple of prisoners on the battlefield my general will get the "scant mercy" vice. But if I execute (or release) all the prisoners after the battle, I don't consistently get any vice - my gov may end up with a V&V the next turn, but I can't count on it, or know what it may be. But maybe I'm just not observant enough.

Interesting topic!

[Sun Tzui]

1. Kille'm all and add to your King's and Gov's Dread (depending on the amount of rebels slaughtered) - I've found this to be very useful to reduce future rebellions, Kings' Gov's and Heirs with high dread reduce dramatically chances for rebellions....even in provinces such as Portugal, Scotland, or islands that get cut off!

2. Spare'm and gain Piety to King and Gov, this is useful if you like to go rampart with crusades/jihads all the time as it raises provinces zeal...

3. Just kill the leaders.....this is where I don't really get what it does!? I personally never use it!

P.S. Your Kings Dread and Piety end up reflecting in your heirs, so you can always play for reigns of terror as I do, or play for holy wars, sanctity and the salvation of your soul ...

[Ludens]

1) 'Kill/enslave all' gives you the 'swift justice' line of vices. The first one increases dread, but if you keep doing it you will gain hapiness penalties.
2) 'Kill/enslave ringleaders' is the neutral one
3) 'Release all' starts the 'merciful' virtues which increase hapiness but decrease dread.

Remember that it only works if the rebels have rebelled against you, not against the other factions. The virtues and vices get progressively worse; after a while the hapiness/dread penalty will outweigh the hapiness/dread bonus. There is also the 'random justice' vice which you are supposed to get if you alternate between options one and three, but I have never seen that happen. 'Random justice' might just be an extension of the 'swift justice' line.

But what are the direct effects on hapiness of these options? Does release make the population happier, but increases the size of future revolts? Does 'kill/enslave all' make the population less satisified but decreases the number of potential rebels? Or is there no effect, apart from the vices?

BTW Dough-Tompson, I thought you could only get butcher if you slaughtered a thousand captives in battle? I am quite sure the 'butcher' and 'swift justice' lines are separate: I once got a general who was a mercifull bloodlover .

[Doug-Thompson]

BTW Doug-Thompson, I thought you could only get butcher if you slaughtered a thousand captives in battle? I am quite sure the 'butcher' and 'swift justice' lines are separate: I once got a general who was a mercifull bloodlover .

Hmm. Not sure how much difference it makes. Both lines lead to higher dread, but I'll concede the point.

Interesting chance for ofsetting one set of vices with another, though.

[Procrustes]

Ah, so that's where the "merciful" and "justice" V&V's come from - thanks! Wish I'd noticed before... I'll start playing with them more.

Seems like you should do each once - kill 'em all once to get the dread star (kill a couple more while on the battlefield to get two), then provoke another rebellion and release them all to get the +10% happiness.

[Sociopsychoactive]

Ok, the 'swift justive' vice can be gained by killing a certain amount of rebels, the amount is dependant on other factors. This can then lead to other vices, all of which get more dread, some of which have moral penalties (soldiers don't like missing out on their share of loot and ransom money) and happiness vices (people don't like being killed all the time).

The 'mercifull' line is harder to get, requires LOTS of releasing of troops and so on.

THe random justice can be gained by changing what you do often, and can be got for killing the ringleaders. This is only a nuetral option if you always stick to it, and I'm not sure of that.

'Butcher' is got by killing over one thousand prisoner rebels either in or after combat. It gives you +2 dread, and nothing else, but you will get 'scant mercy' or worse if you already have that line of vices, so at least +3 dread in total.

THe happiness boost is not notified, and barely noticable so I tend to kill em all and have despotic rulers, being french we have HUGE acumen, reasonably command and now loads of dread, plus quite a good piety.

[katank]

killing in battle and in the rebel screen are separate.

you shoudl only kill about twice in battle for any general or it will be bad.

for the rebel screen, I typically kill all about 1/3 of the time and release all 2/3 of the time for just about the maximum boosting in happiness/dread combining to give me the least chance for rebellions.

those who kill only ringleaders are just afraid to take a stand

[Blodrast]

hmm, can you shed a bit more light onto those 1/3 and 2/3 ratios, please ?

[Doug-Thompson]

THe random justice can be gained by changing what you do often, and can be got for killing the ringleaders. This is only a nuetral option if you always stick to it, and I'm not sure of that.

I've never received a random justice vice while consistantly applying an "enslave the ringleaders" policy.

[Accounting Troll]

How I deal with captured rebels depends on my situation in the overall campaign, but I always give my king the choice of thumbs up or thumbs down. If my general regularly executes prisoners, there is a morale penalty so I only use that option when I have captured an important general who fights for another faction.

If there are no real external threats at the moment, and I dont expect any real threats in the next 20-30 turns, I execute them all so my king gets the no justice vice (greatly reduced province loyalty) as beating down lots of rebellions increases the command rating of my generals and royal heirs.

If I am taking lots of territory off my enemies in a major war, my king releases all rebels, including the leaders, to get the most merciful virtue, so I have less problems with province loyalty as I rush troops off to the front.

[Blodrast]

Also, Procrustes, it has been pointed out that while quite odd and incomprehensible to me, the following fact stands:
it is far more likely for your generals to get VnV's after a battle if you autocalc.
you may have half a dozen battles and not gain one virtue, but just do an autocalc and you'll see what I mean.

I suppose these are all bugs, because I for one can't see the point.
It's the same with capturing generals/princes/kings: try to do it manually, and half the time you may end up killing them; autocalc, and you'll ALWAYS capture them (thanks to katank for pointing it out a long time ago).

Also, if you look up some building-jedi-directions threads, you'll notice there are quite a few lines of VnV's that you can acquire for sure for your general. The thing is, that's perfectly true, but ONLY if you autocalc. I tried it myself several times and unfortunately that's the way it works.

[katank]

1/3, 2/3 is kinda experimental and the fact that I'm a nice guy.

releasing gives happiness bonuses while killing gives dread.

more dread + more happiness = maximum loyalty = maximum income and stability.

so do both extremes frequently and your ruler will be ideal.

[Blodrast]

1/3, 2/3 is kinda experimental and the fact that I'm a nice guy.

whoa, you don't really expect me to base my gameplay on that ?!!

(just kidding, k)

[katank]

nah, it shoudl be a mix of the two but I find happiness to be a bit more useful than dread in improving gameplay.

anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 release all should be good.

I never just kill ringleaders as it's not productive in any capacity.