unit speeds for STW, MTW and RTWdemo

[Aelwyn]

I understand map sizes have increased, but if increasing map sizes has forced them to alter game play so significantly, then they've sacrificed the core of the game for the superficial benefit of a larger map.

To me, the better solution would be to slightly increase walk speed, so you can slow down the charge speed to a more acceptable rate. This doesn't make practical sense, but I don't care much about that. Of course you could ignore both and slow down kill rates, but that imo would just promote some types of camping, and dumb things down a bit. It'd be a lot like the tests people ran back a while ago where they never moved units, and they still did much better than they should have, if you know what I mean. So all 3 speeds may need some tweaking, but like Yuuki said, this ones gonna be tough to even semi-balance.

[econ21]

Puzz3D - are you more worried about unit speeds or killing speeds? As a SP-only person addicted to the pause button, I am not sure the differences in unit speeds you document are large enough to cause a problem. However, I find Trebia is still far too quickly resolved and hard to control. I wonder if it is the killing speed that causes this, rather than the unit speed?

In MTW, attack and defence factors were low - around plus or minus 5. Here, we seem to have a range of around 3 to 22. Remember, each difference of 1 in attack and defence changed the kill rate by around 20%. If the old formula for kills is used with the new numbers, it is no wonder we see units slicing through others like butter.

[A.Saturnus]

I think the main problem is killing speed. The movement speed is at least approximately realistic. But fights shouldn´t resolve so quickly.

[Puzz3D]

Puzz3D - are you more worried about unit speeds or killing speeds? As a SP-only person addicted to the pause button, I am not sure the differences in unit speeds you document are large enough to cause a problem. However, I find Trebia is still far too quickly resolved and hard to control. I wonder if it is the killing speed that causes this, rather than the unit speed?

In MTW, attack and defence factors were low - around plus or minus 5. Here, we seem to have a range of around 3 to 22. Remember, each difference of 1 in attack and defence changed the kill rate by around 20%. If the old formula for kills is used with the new numbers, it is no wonder we see units slicing through others like butter.

I'm more concerned with the running/charging speeds, and I think it's impacting other parts of the gameplay besides your ability to coordinate units. For head-to-head fighting, I don't think the killing speed is any faster than MTW for spear to spear and sword to sword type matchups. CBR timed some of those matchups, and got similar times to MTW. However, the increased charge speed has increased the momentum of the charge. That would make the charge last longer thereby increasing the number of charge kills unless the charge threshold was raised. My theory at this point is that the speeds were increased without changing other parameters. For instance, the fatigue for running seems relatively low, and I see some gliding effect on the cavalry animation when running despite some slight slipping when walking on the snow. Also, the infantry slips when walking on the snow, but not when running. These things would happen if all you did was increase the running speed. That extra killing will trip a rout sooner, and the rate that routers are killed is quite high. In the Trebia battle, as soon as you rout one or two units, all the Romans tend to rout and their whole army evaporates. I think that's why the battle ends so quickly. Increased running speed also reduces the effectiveness of ranged units on advancing men. A lot of things besides ability to coordinate units are impacted by changing unit movement speeds.

The larger attack/defend values could mean that the resolution of the combat system has been increased. The 20% steps in the previous games were rather large. It could also mean increased differences between units, and that would increase killing rates in uneven matchups. That would give you less time to correct a bad matchup or bring in a supporting unit, and many players want that type of gameplay. Increasing the rock, paper scissors would do a similar thing by resolving that type of mismatch faster than you see in MTW.

I think doing well by not moving in MTW is an indication that fatigue rate is too high in that game on the large maps. If fatigue rates are set high in RTW it's going to be very hard on the attacker, but it also deters rushing. I'd like to see rushing detered by a combination of fatigue rate, ranged unit effectiveness and tactical control of units without any one of those factors able to do it by itself.

RTW should come out with good, balanced tactical gameplay in SP and MP given the years of experience CA has with the system.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'm more concerned with the running/charging speeds, and I think it's impacting other parts of the gameplay besides your ability to coordinate units. For head-to-head fighting, I don't think the killing speed is any faster than MTW for spear to spear and sword to sword type matchups. CBR timed some of those matchups, and got similar times to MTW. However, the increased charge speed has increased the momentum of the charge. That would make the charge last longer thereby increasing the number of charge kills unless the charge threshold was raised. My theory at this point is that the speeds were increased without changing other parameters. For instance, the fatigue for running seems relatively low, and I see some gliding effect on the cavalry animation when running despite some slight slipping when walking on the snow. Also, the infantry slips when walking on the snow, but not when running. These things would happen if all you did was increase the running speed. That extra killing will trip a rout sooner, and the rate that routers are killed is quite high. In the Trebia battle, as soon as you rout one or two units, all the Romans tend to rout and their whole army evaporates. I think that's why the battle ends so quickly. Increased running speed also reduces the effectiveness of ranged units on advancing men. A lot of things besides ability to coordinate units are impacted by changing unit movement speeds.

The larger attack/defend values could mean that the resolution of the combat system has been increased. The 20% steps in the previous games were rather large. It could also mean increased differences between units, and that would increase killing rates in uneven matchups. That would give you less time to correct a bad matchup or bring in a supporting unit, and many players want that type of gameplay. Increasing the rock, paper scissors would do a similar thing by resolving that type of mismatch faster than you see in MTW.

I think doing well by not moving in MTW is an indication that fatigue rate is too high in that game on the large maps. If fatigue rates are set high in RTW it's going to be very hard on the attacker, but it also deters rushing. I'd like to see rushing detered by a combination of fatigue rate, ranged unit effectiveness and tactical control of units without any one of those factors able to do it by itself.

Great analysis. I agree that balancing those factors would be a solution, but will CA reach that balance in the final release? Hasn't the demo shown us that is not what Activision wants? Or this Demo was was just modified to lure the non-hardcore future buyers?

RTW should come out with good, balanced tactical gameplay in SP and MP given the years of experience CA has with the system.

Questions are: Do they want it? If so, does Activision want it? Or let's them make it? Has CA, with limited development time, focused too much on the strategical map and 3d battle system and not on the balanced gameplay? I know that sounds strange, but it's a possiblity...