The Pope, and how he is even more annoying than you all thought

[Silver Rusher]

Alright.

I guess that you all have had some very bad experiences with the Pope, excommunication perhaps, even crusades being called against you. But lets just take a look at some of the other things that the Pope will do just to make him much more annoying.

1. The Papacy as a faction; The Papacy AI is completely useless, but for all the other reasons below this doesn't really matter. Not once have I seen a papal port or a papal ship, even though they are surrounded by water on both sides. They hardly ever upgrade their buildings, either.

2. Unfair crusading; Have you ever noticed how the Papacy only ever picks on the Almos, Egyptians and excom. factions? I have never seen the pope call for support for crusades against the Turks, the Byzantines, the Russians or the Golden Horde. This can be quite annoying when playing as the Egyptians.

3. What's going on with the Swiss; This is something very strange, and I think you will all agree. Even with the Swiss constantly rampaging around France and slaughtering them all mercilessly, the Pope never seems to give even the slightest fig. What's going on here?

4. The Inquisition and the Assasins; The Pope is always sending agents around, mainly Inquisitors and Bishops (we all know how annoying rival inquisitors are) and you can also very often get news of Papal assasins being caught in your provinces (more than anyone else by my count)

5. No, I think I'll turtle a little longer; Something else about the Papacy, they never ever stop building troops. Sometimes, Papal armies are the most concentrated forces in Europe, making an invasion and putting an end to their reign of terror much harder.

6. Sorry, I wasn't in power then. Cancel the crusade; A lot of very very high amounts of tripe here, the pope dies and his heir cancels excommunications, just when your English army is just about to reach that heretical 'Ile de France'.

7. Invade, excommunicate, repeat; One of my pet papal peeves- just when you think the Pope can't get any softer at all, he sends a small army into your unguarded province of Naples/Tuscany/Milan. It is only unguarded because you think that the Pope isn't a threat and the province has very high loyalty, don't get caught in that trap. In my game as the Sicilians/High/Hard I had conquered northern africa and much of the balkans. Then the Pope sends his titchy little force of UMs into Naples, destroys three buildings and damages one. So I send my large force of Feudal Knights in, straight from Malta, and bam, the Pope moves his huge, turtlified army in. I make a huge last stand to defend what rightfully belonged to me, failed, and got excommed.

8. Who are you?; Picture this. You are the aragonese. You have firmly held on to Aragon, as well as taking Valencia and Navarre. The Italians come along, and invade Valencia by sea, then crushing all of your armies. In a couple of years, the Italians get excommed and the war rages on. Then the Spanish decide to have a go at you and take Navarre. The Papacy just look straight past them and focus on the Italians. Remember, if the faction you are dealing with is already at war with someone else, you simply cannot be excommed for it.

9. You and whose army?; The most annoying thing about the Pope, which makes you want to scream and tear your hair out. Listen. You are the Polish (for the sake of fair randomness). You manage to build up a fairly large empire, halted on one side by the GH and having already taking Germany through cautious underhand tactics. You get through Italy, see the Pope, and think 'Pah! His armies are so puny my arms flop down just looking at them. So you invade. BIG BIG BIG MISTAKE! You think you've got 'em, turn your attention elsewhere, and BAM! The Papacy reemerge with 5000+ troops in each papal province, all at the Chivalric level with 3 valour and some armour upgrades. The funny thing is though, this happens even if you have 200 percent loyalty and some fairly large armies in rome and in the papal states. You don't want to kill the Pope unless you already own the rest of the world and have some massive armies, as they truly are the hardest enemy in the game to take on and defeat.

Post feedback please.

[solypsist]

1. I see Papal ships all the time. But I don't think I've ever seen a naval invasion (via port) by Papal armies.

[Procrustes]

1. The Papacy as a faction; The Papacy AI is completely useless, but for all the other reasons below this doesn't really matter. Not once have I seen a papal port or a papal ship, even though they are surrounded by water on both sides. They hardly ever upgrade their buildings, either.

I've seen papal ships, though I've never been attacked by one.

(Yeah, the pope's a pain, but I kinda like the added challenge he gives the game.)

EDIT - the AI does a poor job with all the factions, really. I've started to use the -IAN command line so that I can occasionally help them out. Otherwise, a lot of the factions end up hopelessly in debt - they just sit there unable to build anything waiting to be picked off. The Dane's are a good example - leave them alone and by 1175 they will likely be sitting in their one province with a crapload of royal knights and about 25,000 florins in debt. If it wasn't for things like the amazing pope and huge faction re-emergences, you could wipe the map up in no time.

[Qilue]

Concerning excommunication, I remember in one game when I was looking at a leader's stats, the crosses looked strange. It was only for a moment and then I remembered that was what they looked like when your not excom'ed.

[ichi]

you can add "I said TEN years" to the list

I routinely get the warning to cease and desist, and when I do stop attacking, invariably I get attacked and I retaliate, and sure enough . . .



ichi

[Blodrast]

lol, very very nice list, Silver Rusher.
I've also seen papal ships; they do build them, but it's probably not that much of a priority for them.
I guess reemergences are kinda silly for all factions, although I admit they are even more so for the Pope; where the hell do they just pop out with thousands and thousands of super-equipped and ultra-upgraded warriors ? what, they just found how to operate the stargates ?!

The list is, like I said, very good.
Even though it's really annoying quite often, I reckon the Pope does make the game more challenging and interesting. It just gives it a bit more flavour. Of course that doesn't stop you from cringing your teeth and cursing it all the time

[MerlinusCDXX]

Concerning excommunication, I remember in one game when I was looking at a leader's stats, the crosses looked strange. It was only for a moment and then I remembered that was what they looked like when your not excom'ed.

LMFAO...Yeah, I know what you mean...I play the HRE

[DisruptorX]

I've actually played a game where the papacy decided to go out and conquer all of italy and a bunch of Germany. One of the AI players decided to plant a large army on Rome and the Papacy emerged with an enourmous army and destroyed the italians and what was left of the Germans.

Most of the time, though, they just sit there and act annoying. Advise: do not keep large garrisons on their territory, or they will reemerge with large armies. Same with all new factions and rebellions. Don't put many troops on his land after conquering it, and you won' have problems. I usually just let him sit there and put big armies up next to him, though. Saves me alot of trouble.

[Lonewarrior]

Dam Pope always telling me to stop attacking, but u know I do the opposite, which I don't really have a problem with. I almost never use crusades so Pope, excommunicate me all u want. I just laugh every time he tells me to stop attacking, makes me wanna take over his provinces.

[CherryDanish]

I too have seen the papacy make a ship, but it seems like their tactic is to use it to prevent a seaborne invasion as it never leaves the coast.

I don't mind the Papal AI as when I get excommed, I usually get a new pope the year after (thank you mr. assassin type guy). That said, I try to avoid it as it takes time to build a sizable and competant assassin core. Getting excommed for crusading against a rogue faction when their ruler dies or when I get a new pope, really sucks.

Since papal armies are inferior quality they make a great enemy for my factions to get the butcher v&v and as well the skilled attacker stuff (same thing with the eggys). As a Christian faction I can invade, get excommed, knock the pope to a single province in a couple rounds, then retreat to make peace and then assassinate the pope to clear the excom. If you push the pope to an underdeveloped province they are still carrying the heavy debt from their overbuild and become a non-factor as they won't likely have a border fort or economic base to get out of debt and build more troops. Without the border fort, they are easy prey for assassins. Usually I don't finish off the faction till the last year because I hate the fact that they come back as a powerhouse.

The thing that is really dangerous about the Papacy is what you don't see ... papal agents. The papacy uses inquisitors, spies and assassins to undermine you. Whenever I see a papal inq, I check it's mission and if he's going after one of mine I chase him over the map with about 3 low valour assassins, or I lay a trap for him leaving a core of assassins in his path. With one of my spies in every province I own, an assassin and a bishop, it's easy to beat the inqs as the bishop lowers the inq's ability to burn you. The papal assassins are harder to deal with, but with 3 agents and the BF in every province, it's usually enough (I get spammed consistantly with messages from the AI about spies and assassins I catch and kill, but it only takes one to get through to smoke the low valour targets they seem to set their sights on). I don't understand the AIs plan as it really chooses odd targets for sending it's agents after. It hit a no star general I had on a stack of catapaults I send in with invading armies where the morale penaties don't apply and he wasn't the gov of any province either. The agent's are not really all that dangerous if you properly protect yourself, but you gotta think these guys are nuts. It's like the guy who threatens you, then kills your dog. He's not hurting you, but you wonder what he's going to do next because the first move was so insanely stupid.

[katank]

the papacy is actually the 4th or 5th largest power in my game.

between them and the Danes, they carves up most of Germany whic was taken over by the Huns who reached Anjou and Normandy!

they have about 6-7 ships and also regularly launch seaborne invasions into Sicilian territories.

the Italians are long dead but reemerge regularly on Corsica and Sardinia with killer stacks.

A 5* papal inq also fried a 6* that I had and needed fairly badly (high valor too, 12). I didn't find out until afte the fact and my 3* Syrian boys lay him low. Still, they are actually a power now and their navy worries me.

[Silver Rusher]

Thanks for your comments, I may soon post a guide in the guides forum about how to successfully conquer the Papacy without rebellions, as being the MTW protestant that I am, I have a lot of experience with this matter.

Like most factions, full frontal invasion is not the key here. You must use subtle tactics, like using inquisitors and assasins to kill their generals, and maybe even the Pope himself if his piety is low (otherwise kill him with an assasin)

[DisruptorX]

I always find it hillarious to send over hordes of imlams or whatever they are called and convert all of the papacy's population to Islam. The irony of the pope having no relgious support from his own population is too darn funny.

The same works with orthodox priests.

[katank]

If I'm muslim, I conquer Rome or the Papal State whenever the first crusade is launched against me.

I then raze it to the ground and abandon it, taking it by jihads every time thereafter when another crusade is laucnhed against me.

the forces jihads that take Rome can often return in time to defeat the Crusaders.

[Servius]

Whenever I've played Italy I've always tried to undercut the Pope without actually eliminating him because I still want access to Hospitallers.

The way I do it:
a) Invade Rome, forcing the Pope and all his forces to The Papal States.
b) Burn everything in Rome to the ground
c) Build a Fort in Rome
d) Leave Rome and wait for the Pope to take it back, or for a loyalist Papal army to appear. It will be small since you don't have a garrison there.
e) Invade The Papal States, forcing any Papal forces there back to Rome.
f) Invade Rome, destroy his army in the field, but allow the Pope to escape and retreat into the Fort you built.
g) Leave Rome and keep small garrisons in Naples, The Papal States, and Tuscany.

This process...
1) destroy's the Pope's economy, which prevents him from building up again.
2) reduces his forces to a pitance, allowing you to leave token garrisons around him.
3) pins him in Rome, which only requires three provinces to be garrisoned (surrounding him in The Papal States would have required the permanent garrisoning of Venice too).
4) leaves the Papal faction intact, which allows you to Crusade again (once that pope dies of "natural causes").
5) allows you to get The Papal States, which is a decent economic asset.
6) allows you to avoid periodic uber Papal rebellions

[Quietus]

If you really have to fight the Pope then eliminate the faction. When they resurface ,allow one of his army to take one of your province (but retreat one unit to your hold) . You yourself will take on the pope's main army on another province.

Just capture the guy and ransom him. After that eliminate the rest of the army.
Wait for another insurrection, repeat the process.

Make the guy usefull for your advantage.

[katank]

I've never got a ransom for the pope as they just elect a new one.

I tend to bash him into a fort in Papal states and siege him until the last possible moment before pulling out to weaken him the most.

This leaves his unit and some emaciated UMs for company and they aren't a threat.

Rome actually has decent income while Papal States is worth nothing.

the papal forces will be so small that a mere garrison unit or two is sufficient to deter invasions.

Venice you have to guard anyhow from incursions by Huns and the HRE so it's not much of a loss to guard that.

[Quietus]

I just keep ransoming the Pope until they get tired of it. By that time the campaign is over.

IIRC, they can't elect a new Pope if they don't have complete control of the land. That's why I think I always retreat a unit so it isn't officially their province.

[Qilue]

One thing I always do is train up a pair of grand inquisitors to around 5 stars. I then set them to terrorizing the pope for the rest of the game.

[amir]

i just build a grand inquisitor and keep killin the pope its so funny and easy, i had one that killed like 5 popes!