Pigs, Dogs, Screeching Women...

[Stuie]

I decided to try and find some justification for either having these in the game or modding them out. So of course I turned to google. Interestingly, when I searched on WARDOGS and ROME, most of the hits related to RTW. So then I tried MOLOSSUS (the type of dog in question) and ROME and found the following:

The oft-mentioned claim that the Romans made extensive use of war dogs seems to have scant literary and archaeological support as well.

http://www.american-bulldog.com/molossus_myth.htm

Looks like the dogs are going to be modded out.

Next I turned to pigs. Again, a search of BURNING PIGS ROME turned up lots of RTW information, and nothing historical. So then I tried PIGS ROME ELEPHANTS, and found this:

Altogether the pig seems to have been quite an effective weapon against the elephant, although its use does not appear to have been widespread in the ancient world.

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/elephants-war-greek.htm

This could go either way, and I'll need to play the game to make a final decision. Too many pigs show up, and they are getting modded. If they only appear infrequently, then perhaps I'll allow them to stay.

Now onto the Screeching Women. Ya know, I hear enough of my wife screeching at me when I play computer games. Is it really necessary to have women yelling at me in the game as well? But turning back to google....

Well, I tried "SCREECHING WOMEN" ROME and predictably came up with a bunch of RTW articles. So then I tried "GERMAN WOMEN" ROME WARFARE and guess what!!

It stands on record that armies already wavering and on the point of collapse have been rallied by the women, pleading heroically with their men, thrusting forward their bared bosoms, and making them realize the imminent prospect of enslavement -- a fate which the Germans fear more desperately for their women than for themselves.

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/tacitus.htm

I found some other sources, too, but figured the contemporary one was best cited. Fine. I'll leave them in.

[Lord Ovaat]

Stuie, I do believe most of these annoyances have been added to "balance" some factions and make the game more interesting for twelve-year-olds who have lost their last Star Wars CD. As soon as I can eliminate ANYTHING hoaky from an historical game, I will. But like you, I want to see just how bad it really is before I start really whinning. This is just a little whine. I ain't even warmed up, yet.

[GilJaysmith]

Googling for "romans war dogs molossi" gives numerous results including http://www.canecorsoitaliano.net/pugnax.htm

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

thrusting forward their bared bosoms

This is supposed to be frightening?!

[Stuie]

Googling for "romans war dogs molossi" gives numerous results including http://www.canecorsoitaliano.net/pugnax.htm

Thanks Gil! I was hoping I could lure out a developer.

The article seems to point more toward the use of dogs by the "barbarians", particularly in Gaul and Britain, than regular use by the Romans. I'll definitely play through the game as is and give everything a chance prior to modding, but if I see too many dogs fighting FOR Rome, they're gonna have to go. Same goes for the gladiator units, by the way, but that's being discussed in another thread.

[Spino]

This is supposed to be frightening?!

Sanct you nut, reread that link! It's not meant to frighten the enemy but motivate the German warriors and remind them that defeat usually means a terrible fate for their women and children.

Shaking it in their face so to speak...

[Lucius Lucullus]

Sanct you nut, reread that link! It's not meant to frighten the enemy but motivate the German warriors and remind them that defeat usually means a terrible fate for their women and children.

Shaking it in their face so to speak...

... that wouldnt get me ready to fight , but rather for something else entirly

[Myrddraal]

I'd have though it would be quite distracting...

[Kraxis]

I'd have though it would be quite distracting...

Probably was, but hey even the Roman tire out from killing a lot of enemies.

[Tamur]

Breasts were not the sex symbol they are today --- people did not have formula to replace the vital role that mothers played. They were a symbol of continued life. The fact that the women would bare their breasts showed that 1) they feared that it would be end of continued life for their town/tribe, and 2) they knew that if the Romans won, rape would be the result.

It's quite horrible if you put it in context.

[Kraxis]

Tamur, I'm pretty certain they know that... For a woman to do that, even in a society where breasts are what they are now (but they were still sexsymbols as why do we have them when the other primates don't), would mean it is a desperate situation and something she fears very much looms ahead.

[Praylak]

I'd have though it would be quite distracting...

Particularly so if it was modeled in the game. I'm sure to loose every battle with them involved. Too much gawking, not enough commanding.

[Spino]

Breasts were not the sex symbol they are today --- people did not have formula to replace the vital role that mothers played. They were a symbol of continued life...

Not entirely true. That may have held true in ancient Germanic cultures but in ancient Rome for a women to bare her breasts or crotch in public was considered a shameful and scandalous act. Traditional Roman women even wore the ancient equivalent of bras to bed and when having intercourse! Even male nudity was frowned upon by Roman stoics! I believe ancient Greece held similar beliefs with repsect to women.

[Tamur]

Not entirely true. ... I believe ancient Greece held similar beliefs with repsect to women.

Good points, and agreed. I should have thought before making that statement sound so universal

And Kraxis, yes I figured we're all joking here but then I got to thinking about it and it struck me as a really scary thing! Just had to share the thought.

[DemonArchangel]

Well, in ancient rome, never go out on a windy day. NEVER.

[Steppe Merc]

twelve-year-olds who have lost their last Star Wars CD.

Hey, I like Star Wars and I'm 16!
And even though the women may well have supported their men, to make them a unit is idiotic, just as much as the pigs. I'm still against the dogs, but not nearly as much as the pigs and the women.

[Colovion]

I'm going to burst out laughing when my Calvary rides down and slaughters each and every one of those screaming women.

Or maybe they'll be taken hostage and my Generals can enjoy their screaming during nocturnal activities...

[Steppe Merc]

Or maybe they'll be taken hostage and my Generals can enjoy their screaming during nocturnal activities...

Youre generals can take all the German screaming women all they like. Mine will take the expensive exotic slaves...
Or judging by commoniality of the perversion vices, they'd probably prefer young boys. But since that's just weird, I'll give them a pet monkey.

[Encaitar]

Like monkeys are any better...

[Red Harvest]

Like monkeys are any better...

That's not fair, Michael Jackson had a pet monkey and...oh...never mind...

[andrewt]

LOL, Michael Jackson and his pet monkey is the first thing that popped in my mind as well.

I think that these units were historically used. What remains to be seen is if CA balanced them well enough so that they won't appear much more often than they did historically. That and they had the same effects they had historically.

Looking at the description of the women, I think they should raise friendly units' morale instead of decreasing opponents' morale like described. I'll take a wait and see approach before commenting any further, though.

[Quietus]

I don't think Flaming Pigs, War Dogs or Screaming Women will be a detriment to the game at all. If players don't want to play these they have a choice not to train and play them. I don't think the AI will train an all War Dog army like the nasty Ballista Army in MTW (OK, wishful thinking on my part).

A more imperative issue is the speed-slider. Do players have the choice to play at their own pace?

[andrewt]

Hey, it's not an all ballista army in MTW. They have some catapults, too, sometimes.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

LO FREAKING L

I can picture it now...
BrutiiGeneral: So, you wanna go make some noise
PetMonkey: Ohoh HA HA
JuliiGeneral: Ignore that sound, it's just my chain mail panties expanding
PetMonkey: Ohoh HA HA
ScipiiGeneral: I prefer Young men.
BrutiiGeneral: And I perfer germanic screaming women but after that march I'll bang anything
PetMonkey: Ohoh HA HA
Julii General: I can picture it now, me and my flaming pigs..."