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Thread: Bulls vs Horses

  1. #1

    Default Bulls vs Horses

    This maybe a stupid question, but it popped into my head recently. Why were horses only used as cavalry as opposed to bulls. Arn't bulls far stronger and sturdier? It would probably take a lot to tame and train them, but I think they would be pretty powerful on the battlefield. Imagine a line of charging bulls comeing towards you... all with their horns down! Any historical or practical reasons why bulls were never used in battle?

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  2. #2
    dudes what's shakin' Member Katana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Well, I don't know much about livestock, so I'm basically guessing, but... bulls are:

    A. Much wider in the shoulders and torso than a horse. This would make them much more uncomfortable to ride, as well as put pressure on "the boys" if you take my meaning.

    B. Bulls are domesticated in a different manner than horses. I.e., a bull is either a gelding or a steer (balls or no balls), all they really think about is doin' the dirty , eating or sleeping. Horses on the other hand have been used in war and ridden by humans for thousands of years. Think about it.

    Anyways, as this is a subject I'm totally unknowledgable about, please disregard my ramblings. I'm pretty sure there are some legitimate reasons to use a horse over a bull (i.e. speed or whatever), because someone had to have had this idea before.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    C. Have you ever seen more than one bull per field? There's a reason for that, you know. Trying to form a unit of them would be impossible, they'd kill each other and their riders. Of course, you could give them the ol' snip-snip, but then they lose most if not all of their aggressiveness, and one of their 'advantages' over horses, in the original hypothesis.

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    Counter-Strike Master Member eadeater's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by McGowan
    C. Have you ever seen more than one bull per field? There's a reason for that, you know. Trying to form a unit of them would be impossible, they'd kill each other and their riders. Of course, you could give them the ol' snip-snip, but then they lose most if not all of their aggressiveness, and one of their 'advantages' over horses, in the original hypothesis.
    Heh, true, but they could use individual phycho units. Get the craziest soldier, tie him to the biggest bull, give him a huge mace and enrage the bull. Then all you gotta do is point him in the right direction and he should cause havok .
    "My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius. Commander of the armies of the north; general of the Felix legions and loyal servant of the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife; and I WILL have my vengence, in this life or the next."

  5. #5
    Member Member danimal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    what about grizzly bear riders.
    Am not fully informed but the graphics look nice but to be honest all previous incarnations were rubbish even though I don't know that for sure

  6. #6
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    They were domesticated differently. One for food and to be subdued for their meat and one for transportation.
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    Counter-Strike Master Member eadeater's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Yeah, or maybe wolf riders, ala Warcraft 1?
    "My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius. Commander of the armies of the north; general of the Felix legions and loyal servant of the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife; and I WILL have my vengence, in this life or the next."

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    Viking Zerg Initiate Member CherryDanish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    The very purpose of cav is to be fast and mobile. Some cav are just designed to be tanks (gothic knights and what I assume elephants will be in RTW). I don't think that due to their unwillingness to be trained properly, their slow sustainable speed, and the fact that they lack the size of elephants, that they do not meet either role effectively.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Oaty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Bulls might be more easily spooked than horses. Although not to sure on that. Another thing is if you train them not to be able to be spooked and be mean at the same time..... how in the hell are you going to control them. Another thing is bulls do'nt take to kindly to horses in my experience. I've always seen bulls make way for the horses, this is when they are grazing the bulls let the horse graze what they want and if they keep grazing there direction they keep moving away. I think a bull prefers not to charge a horse because the horse can crack its skull. So a good counter against them would be to just charge at them with the horses. Thus forcing them to route back at your line. Of course when it comes to a pack of them the key ingredient would be to make 1 turn tale after that its history. I've never seen my grandfathers cattle split the herd up, even when I chased them(cows only no bulls) they would maintain there formation (must have been well disciplined )
    When a fox kills your chickens, do you kill the pigs for seeing what happened? No you go out and hunt the fox.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    This has to be one of the best threads ever. I'm wondering though, elephants have been used in war, did nobody try rhinos? They're a bit more docile and easy going than a bull I'd think but would have a hell of a charge.

  11. #11
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Post Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Compare a Clysdale in size with a large bull...
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    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    This has to be one of the best threads ever. I'm wondering though, elephants have been used in war, did nobody try rhinos? They're a bit more docile and easy going than a bull I'd think but would have a hell of a charge.
    Docile? Just because they are docile in the zoo does not mean they are so in the wild. Rhino's are quite skittish, and quite aggresive: it is very hard to tame them. In fact, practically any African animal is very hard to tame.

    I don't think it is the inherent character of a bull that is the problem: horses are quite nasty animals too and can be spooked easily. It is just a question of training. But we've been training horses for thousands of years and are quite good at it. We've got no experience with bulls. And why train a bull when a horse can have the same use?
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  13. #13

    Thumbs up Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens
    It is just a question of training. But we've been training horses for thousands of years and are quite good at it. We've got no experience with bulls.
    Surely the techniques for training horses can be applied to bulls. Training techniques for animals are very similar. And seeing a group of bulls charging carrying the maddest person you can find, holding a mace would be awesome! :

  14. #14

    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    [QUOTE=Ludens]Docile? Just because they are docile in the zoo does not mean they are so in the wild. Rhino's are quite skittish, and quite aggresive: it is very hard to tame them. In fact, practically any African animal is very hard to tame.QUOTE]

    Surely horses were skittish originally? All animals are until they're tamed. I realise keeping a rhino in check would be a little tricky for anyone bar Crocadile Dundee but the end result may be worth the effort. They bothered with elephants why not a rhino? Even tigers can be tamed, look at Siegfried and Roy. Why are African animals hard to tame? Just because they haven't been tamed yet? Or is there a reason why they are harder to tame than European beasts?

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    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Surely horses were skittish originally? All animals are until they're tamed. I realise keeping a rhino in check would be a little tricky for anyone bar Crocadile Dundee but the end result may be worth the effort. They bothered with elephants why not a rhino? Even tigers can be tamed, look at Siegfried and Roy. Why are African animals hard to tame? Just because they haven't been tamed yet? Or is there a reason why they are harder to tame than European beasts?
    Jared Diamond published a book in which he explained why Europa and Asia had such a head-start over all the other continents when it came to civilisation. This book is called 'Guns, Germs and Steel' and is quite a good read if you are interested in the subject.

    One of the reasons for the head-start was that generally African animals cannot be domesticated, whereas European ones could. Why? Perhaps because African animals have a longer experience with humans. For example: zebras (though being almost a horse) do not tolerate humans. They are also very hard to catch: cowboys who win prizes at rodeos by catching horses with lassos found that zebras have a knack for evading the loop.
    And why go through all the bother of learning to train rhinos and bulls if you've already got horses and elephants? Not to forget that it might not work: the bull or rhino might not have the endurance neccesary for long marches and going into battle with full armour.

    BTW elephants are not domesticated: there are no elephants breeding projects. They tame wild elephants, but do not breed with them. It costs to much time before they are grown. Again, this might be an issue with domesticating new animals instead of using already domesticated ones.
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  16. #16
    dudes what's shakin' Member Katana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Well yeah, but consider the thousands of years of breeding and training that have gone into making the horse as we know it today. The fact is, the horse was able to fill the role of a fast, mobile force in medieval armies. Horses are obselete in warfare today however, making the choice to replace them with bulls a null one.

  17. #17
    Viking Zerg Initiate Member CherryDanish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Even tigers can be tamed, look at Siegfried and Roy.
    Erm ... that might not be the best example in the world.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by CherryDanish
    Erm ... that might not be the best example in the world.
    At first glance maybe. The fact that they have tigers doing their bidding on stage and behaving like lap dogs shows just what can be done. It's completely against their nature yet there they are. I know that these guys are magicians so maybe that has something to do with it...

  19. #19

    Post Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I know that these guys are magicians so maybe that has something to do with it...
    Are you implying animals can be trained with magic? Does Gandalf do this in Lord of the rings?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by BigC5
    Are you implying animals can be trained with magic? Does Gandalf do this in Lord of the rings?
    In essence yes. He was the only person in Middle Earth that Shadowfax would let ride him.

    I think Zebras probably run from people because they are used to being hunted by them. I still think wild horses would be the same.

    Coming from a different angle. Falconry was well evolved at this stage. Why didn't they train their birds to attack the eyes of enemy soldiers? If they trained them to go for the guys with the most shiny bits then they may get someone important. You may lose a few birds but it could be worth it for the panic.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    How well can a tiger be tamed if it tries to eat one of its masters?

  22. #22
    Member Member ThijsP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Maybe bulls are'nt tamed but we can tame oxes right?
    Ox carts were used.

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    The comments about bulls not getting along with one another, and being too aggressive, broad at the shoulders, etc. are right on the mark. There is another thing I would like to add: they are somewhat dense (and I'm being kind.) A horse is a smart animal--and pigs are quite intelligent. But bulls and cows are not very bright. They are creatures of herd habits primarily.

    I'm not sure if a bull could cover the distances that a horse could cover in a day. I don't think they could handle rocky terrain as well or that their balance would be as good. A horse is more nimble and faster.
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    Counter-Strike Master Member eadeater's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    How about they set the bulls on fire and charge them in with the pigs
    "My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius. Commander of the armies of the north; general of the Felix legions and loyal servant of the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife; and I WILL have my vengence, in this life or the next."

  25. #25
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    A horse is a smart animal--and pigs are quite intelligent. But bulls and cows are not very bright.
    ... though they've all got sheep beat by a longshot!
    "Die Wahrheit ruht in Gott / Uns bleibt das Forschen." Johann von Müller

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    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Coming from a different angle. Falconry was well evolved at this stage. Why didn't they train their birds to attack the eyes of enemy soldiers? If they trained them to go for the guys with the most shiny bits then they may get someone important. You may lose a few birds but it could be worth it for the panic.
    You're joking, right? The birds would just go for the nearest bloke in armour: you! And if you and your mates didn't wore armour, you would get chopped after the enemy manages to whack the birds out of the air. And, be reasonable: how much damage would a falcon do to a man in full armour before being hit by the man's shield or sword?
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    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Cool Falcon Brigades!

    No no, I can see it now! SCREEEEECH!

    *swoop*

    AAAARAEARRRGGH! MY EYES!!

    Peregrine falcons are pretty smart, you could get them to go for the other side. And think about it-- 200mph dive, claws in the face, believe me: these guys can hit moving pidgeons from a mile up, they'll hit the unarmored part of the face. Maybe they won't always get the eyes, but it would hurt like hell and the bird would be off before you could retaliate. They're tiny little things and move fast and would be relatively safe even from bows.

    Why did no one think of this? It's like a Greco-Roman sniper rifle!

    (Well, the Romans actually did have light ballistae which essentially functioned as sniper rifles.)

    DA

  28. #28
    robotica erotica Member Colovion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens
    Jared Diamond published a book in which he explained why Europa and Asia had such a head-start over all the other continents when it came to civilisation. This book is called 'Guns, Germs and Steel' and is quite a good read if you are interested in the subject.

    One of the reasons for the head-start was that generally African animals cannot be domesticated, whereas European ones could. Why? Perhaps because African animals have a longer experience with humans. For example: zebras (though being almost a horse) do not tolerate humans. They are also very hard to catch: cowboys who win prizes at rodeos by catching horses with lassos found that zebras have a knack for evading the loop.
    And why go through all the bother of learning to train rhinos and bulls if you've already got horses and elephants? Not to forget that it might not work: the bull or rhino might not have the endurance neccesary for long marches and going into battle with full armour.

    BTW elephants are not domesticated: there are no elephants breeding projects. They tame wild elephants, but do not breed with them. It costs to much time before they are grown. Again, this might be an issue with domesticating new animals instead of using already domesticated ones.
    I was going to mention this - excellent book, it very well describes the reasons why civilizations turned out the ways they did.

    The animals in Africa are able to be tamed to a point, but not domesticated. Perhaps if they hadn't been hunted by humans for thousands of years they might be more adaptable to being tamed and perhaps even domesticated, but that chance is gone now. Even tamed tigers turn on their keepers every so often - which is why it's amusing that Sig + Roy were brought up.

    Bulls are bovines - which are herd animals and rather stupid aswell. In combat it would go something like: CHARGE! *bull gets a spear in the eye* *bull wails in pain and bolts away from the pointy sticks* *rest of bulls hear this and take off as well*

    Once again this might be because cattle have been domesticated for so long that they only rely on eachother and don't really think for themselves as much as horses do. Horses were never bred and domesticated primarily for food at a degree that cattle have been but have been relied on more for mobile transportation than anything.

    Read Jared Diamonds book if you haven't already - it's quite the read.
    robotica erotica

  29. #29

    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    they are somewhat dense (and I'm being kind.) A horse is a smart animal
    I think this is the best point made here, this also answers all the debate about training. Horses are easier to train as they are smarter.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Bulls vs Horses

    Birds of prey could do the job. The enemy, those in full plate armour, won't have their visors down until they're engaged in battle. I'd have thought they'd keep them up to survey the battlefield until it's necessary to sacrifice vision for protection. A man would have to be mightily quick to stop a bird swooping at their face from up high, it'd take them completely by surprise. If they were suspecting bird strike and kept their visors down out of fear from the previous day's air ambush then their peripheral vision would be next to none. They would be flanked and dead.

    Either way the birds are the key to military supremacy in the middle ages, they just needed a visionary to point it out to them.


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