Cavalry way overpowered

[Armchair Athlete]

OK, does anyone else here think that cavalry are much too strong? At the moment there is basically no reason to build anything other than cavalry, apart from city sieges and defence. There is simply no counter to fast cavalry other than more cavalry, you can move them around spears and charge them from behind (who cant turn aroud fast enough), they slaughter archers and skirmishers (which is fine) and defeat swordsmen. I build armies of pretty much just Macedonian Light lancers (plus two units of merc hoplites, 3 cretan archers and a couple of skirmishers) and am dominating with ease (on Hard battle/normal camp map). In game I always see Egypt and Macedon dominating becuase of their excellent cavalry. I would rather have Macedonian Light Lancers than even post Marian Legionnaires! And dont even get me started on cavalry archers. Has anyone figured out how/where to mod unit files yet? becuase i was thinking of maybe doubling their upkeep cost, so the AI cant build armies of fast cavalry.

[Dorkus]

someone on the come posted that spear anti cav bonuses aren't working.

that would go a long way toward explaining cavalry dominance.

[ElmarkOFear]

This link, provided by someone at the .com, would probably explain exactly why this would be: https://activision.custhelp.com/cgi-...PVJvbWU*&p_li=

If Activision had CA make fatigue less of a factor in battles, then I wonder what other things they changed so the new RTS/Console players would have an easier time? Maybe, less spear vs. cav bonuses? That might also explain why the RTW Prima guide is the only guide in the TW series which doesn't explain the combat system, with its penalties, bonuses, etc . . . they don't want anyone to know how the real-time battles have been "dumbed-down".

[Armchair Athlete]

That would explain a bit, lower fatigue effect means that cav can flank much easier

[discovery1]

Is it just me, or are cavalry more effective against hoplites than against hastati? At least when the hastati are nice and deep.

[Oaty]

Cavalry is'nt so overpowered but I'm playing on huge units wich makes it a bit different(units have more staying power). The trick is to bog the cavalry down once they lose there momentum they are sitting ducks. What makes them appear to be way overpowered is if they route the enemy before there charge loses its power they can continue the charge on. But if the unit withstands the charge that cavalry is pretty much screwed.

[Praylak]

I agree, thats exactly what I seen happening. They get their almighty charge, but if they get hung up in group they attacked, they get chewed badly. I've found a deep formation of Legionaries on defend take a cavalry charge pretty well. Cavalry has seem to become a bit of gamble, I like it really. Knowing when to charge and who to charge, makes all the difference.

[slackker]

i don't hav the game but heres a ques: is the computer AI smart enuf to withdraw their calvary and recharge? i.e prevent if from being bogged down..

[Daevyll]

As long as you stand still before the charge, and have 'guard' mode enabled, I find that my Hastati stand up pretty well to a cavalry charge.

Granted it's 'only' Barbarian cavalry, but then Hastati are only light infantry themselves.


Conversely I've found my Equites massacred by Gaul Swordsmen on several occasions.

What _does_ make a huge difference (but then so did it in STW/MTW) is the General's command/traits.
I still wish for a way to tone down the effects of the general a bit (say 50%).

[Sir Toma of Spain]

i don't hav the game but heres a ques: is the computer AI smart enuf to withdraw their calvary and recharge? i.e prevent if from being bogged down..

I had it happen to me once. It was in an ambush (i got ambushed) and i was out numbered 1024 to 220.

[SpencerH]

i don't hav the game but heres a ques: is the computer AI smart enuf to withdraw their calvary and recharge? i.e prevent if from being bogged down..

Yes, and with the right conditions it can become a Benny Hill parody with the cav withdrawing, circling, attacking, ad infinitum, all done at 'cockroach speed'.

[Puzz3D]

The running speeds in the game seem about the same as in the demo, and they are too fast. If those speeds were reduced, the effect of fatigue and charging might improve, and you would be able to control more units at a time. I'm stunned to see that walking, running and charging speeds have been removed from the unit stats. You cannot directly mod these speeds.

[Turbo]

Cavalry should be overpowering against infantry --- for this period it is realistic. Spear and pikes were not utilized effectively against cavalry. Defense in depth would absorb the cavalry charge and the result melee would decimate the cavalry.

[DisruptorX]

In my experience, Pikes slaughter cavalry if they attack the front. The horses die as they hit the pikes, they don't even make it to the men. I've begun fighting defensively with a full semicircle of pikes facing every direction. On the other hand, spears do nothing. A frontal charge of cavalry into eastern spearmen sends the spearmen running in seconds.

[kataphraktoi]

I've sent some scythed chariots against some light infantry and peasants - the scythed chariots were beaten to a pulp....

[Red Harvest]

Cavalry are uber in RTW. You really don't need infantry. The game system has fast kills for flanking and super fast movement speed. This does in the old "rock, paper, scissors." Now "scissors" outflanks rock and kills it before it has a chance to bash.

I'm disappointed with the battles. All infantry fights might be good, but all of the battles I fight are dominated by cavalry.

[Turbo]

Cavalry are uber in RTW. You really don't need infantry. The game system has fast kills for flanking and super fast movement speed. This does in the old "rock, paper, scissors." Now "scissors" outflanks rock and kills it before it has a chance to bash.

I'm disappointed with the battles. All infantry fights might be good, but all of the battles I fight are dominated by cavalry.

I haven't found that to be the case at all. Cavalry does overwhelm lower grade infantry, but against better units like the Gaul swordsmen, they often take more punishment than they hand out. If anything, I have been gravitating to infantry as I find the cavalry expensive and their performance less than stellar.

[d6veteran]

Elmark, how many times you going to post that link?

I don't find the cavarly overpowered. Are we playing the same game? Do you not recall what cavalry could do to non spear units in MTW?

If you use cavarly correctly they will cut through the enemy. Otherwise they get bogged down and die quickly. Seems pretty accurate to me.

[Leet Eriksson]

I find it a bit wiered, in some situations my cavalry get killed by skirmishers, like greek peltasts and heavy peltasts(illyrian mercs), but they do pretty well against militia hoplites (not frontal, but when flanked them or attacking from the rear of the unit)... i'm talking about the equites, i haven't tried the other factions cav yet. But overall i find cavs satisfactory, and and very maneuverable and almost useless in melee, wich is pretty much historically correct i guess.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The running speeds in the game seem about the same as in the demo, and they are too fast. If those speeds were reduced, the effect of fatigue and charging might improve, and you would be able to control more units at a time. I'm stunned to see that walking, running and charging speeds have been removed from the unit stats. You cannot directly mod these speeds.

That is very bad news. So much for the hoped "great modability" of the game. So they want to dumbify their games?

Fair enough. I guess I won't bother with the TW series anymore.

[TinCow]

I agree, I don't see much of a problem. Cavalry works well when attacking a flank or the front of a THIN line. Frontal attacks against most units in deep formation is very bad news. This seems to make sense from a realism perspective. If you are having problems with your armies being destroyed by cavalry, use deeper formations and cover your flanks with your own cavalry. This is the exact same 'counter' that was used historically.

[LittleRaven]

Fair enough. I guess I won't bother with the TW series anymore.

*chuckle* You'll miss out on what is most assuredly one of the best games in years (problems notwithstanding) because the movement stats have been moved to a different file?

Your loss.

(you can still mod movement rates, they're just stored in a different place)

edit: I haven't faced too much enemy cavalry yet, but what I have hasn't been a problem. Deep formations are the key. Granted, I've only gone against light cavalry, but in my experience, if the cavalry fails to 'break through,' they'll be dogmeat in no time. Even light infantry cuts them down pretty handily once they lose their momentum. That probably doesn't hold true for heavy cav, but how much heavy cavalry existed in this time frame? (besides elephants)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

*chuckle* You'll miss out on what is most assuredly one of the best games in years (problems notwithstanding) because the movement stats have been moved to a different file?

Your loss.

(you can still mod movement rates, they're just stored in a different place)

LOL!!! My answer was like that, to provoke a reaction and to get feedback on that issue.

Good to know that they can be moded. More hope now. Thanks...

[Thoros of Myr]

There must be something that governs how much units speed up when they run and charge unless it's automaticly calced from thier base speed?

Anyway, some people are blowing this "way overpowered" way out of proportion. Things like cav never die and inf is totally useless is so untrue it's just ridiculous.

[Red Harvest]

I haven't found that to be the case at all. Cavalry does overwhelm lower grade infantry, but against better units like the Gaul swordsmen, they often take more punishment than they hand out. If anything, I have been gravitating to infantry as I find the cavalry expensive and their performance less than stellar.

Not really. With the cav you just flank the heavy infantry or swordsmen and they rout immediately. I've adopted the cavalry rush tactics of the AI. Pick off skirmishers, pick off light infantry. Then pick off heavy infantry. Use the cav to hit each unit from multiple directions and it rapidly succumbs. You can't really create a spear or shield wall, and even if you could, the AI wouldn't use it properly.

[Russ Mitchell]

If half of what I'm hearing is true, then I can only say...

GOOD!

I know that scissor/paper/rock is a nice principle, but spearmen were VASTLY overpowered in MTW compared to their real-life counterparts, and when hit at the flank or rear, they should indeed rout almost instantly. That's why generals spent so much time trying to secure their own flanks while trying to flank their opponents.

It's what happened in real life, time and time again. Doesn't mean that cavalry can't be countered, but hearing this is a heartening note of realism across my humble desktop...

[Steppe Merc]

I like the Cavalry as it is. Of course, I've only played as the Parthians, and they should of course have the best cavalry, along with the Scythians.
I noticed that charges are extremely costly things, escecially if the unit doesn't break. OF course, I'm playing on Huge units, so things might be a bit different for me.

[Red Harvest]

If half of what I'm hearing is true, then I can only say...

GOOD!

I know that scissor/paper/rock is a nice principle, but spearmen were VASTLY overpowered in MTW compared to their real-life counterparts, and when hit at the flank or rear, they should indeed rout almost instantly. That's why generals spent so much time trying to secure their own flanks while trying to flank their opponents.

It's what happened in real life, time and time again. Doesn't mean that cavalry can't be countered, but hearing this is a heartening note of realism across my humble desktop...

No it is not what happened in real life. Real life battles usually took some time in melee, minutes or hours even. Things collapsed in minutes when flanked, not in less than 10 seconds. It takes time for panic to set in and for the men to run. I doubt you will find it realistic. Heavy infantry is peasant level in RTW with respect to morale. And no, a unit of cav didn't kill every man 5 seconds after they routed. These units rout so fast that the forward guys wouldn't even KNOW they had been flanked yet. They wouldn't panic, because they wouldn't even be aware of what was happening. That is how fast it happens in RTW.

Relatively few men were killed until armies actually routed. That is one reason that in *hard fought* battles the victor might lose a few hundred or thousand men out of tens of thousands, while the loser lost 2/3 of his force.

If you think it is realistic that I can crash 6 or 8 light cav units into a mixed infantry wall frontally, and watch it collapse in seconds, then you are sorely mistaken. While I usually flank as well, I just rush straight in if I'm not facing much in the way of spears and want to get it over with. Target 2 or 3 cav on a single infantry unit, and it crumples at the charge. Then hit the adjacent flank units and they rout before they can react.

In MTW, I found that units routed relatively soon if you flanked them unless they were high valour. I always thought that flanking effects were under represented to some degree in MTW (especially in the HTW mod, where surrounding a phalanx had no effect). In RTW you get an increased flanking effect or morale hit, plus a very high movement speed that increases the number of flank attacks disproportinately, along with a rapid kill speed. Does three wrongs make a right?

[d6veteran]

I feel like I'm playing a different game from some of you. I am not seeing infantry evaporate or route that quickly.

[SpencerH]

There must be something that governs how much units speed up when they run and charge unless it's automaticly calced from thier base speed?

As far as anyone has found, the base speed is hard coded and not in the data files. The current mod slows the speed of all units by modifying the movement on different terrains.