Cavalry way overpowered

[LittleRaven]

Fair enough. I guess I won't bother with the TW series anymore.

*chuckle* You'll miss out on what is most assuredly one of the best games in years (problems notwithstanding) because the movement stats have been moved to a different file?

Your loss.

(you can still mod movement rates, they're just stored in a different place)

edit: I haven't faced too much enemy cavalry yet, but what I have hasn't been a problem. Deep formations are the key. Granted, I've only gone against light cavalry, but in my experience, if the cavalry fails to 'break through,' they'll be dogmeat in no time. Even light infantry cuts them down pretty handily once they lose their momentum. That probably doesn't hold true for heavy cav, but how much heavy cavalry existed in this time frame? (besides elephants)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

*chuckle* You'll miss out on what is most assuredly one of the best games in years (problems notwithstanding) because the movement stats have been moved to a different file?

Your loss.

(you can still mod movement rates, they're just stored in a different place)

LOL!!! My answer was like that, to provoke a reaction and to get feedback on that issue.

Good to know that they can be moded. More hope now. Thanks...

[Thoros of Myr]

There must be something that governs how much units speed up when they run and charge unless it's automaticly calced from thier base speed?

Anyway, some people are blowing this "way overpowered" way out of proportion. Things like cav never die and inf is totally useless is so untrue it's just ridiculous.

[SpencerH]

There must be something that governs how much units speed up when they run and charge unless it's automaticly calced from thier base speed?

As far as anyone has found, the base speed is hard coded and not in the data files. The current mod slows the speed of all units by modifying the movement on different terrains.

[Thoros of Myr]

As far as anyone has found, the base speed is hard coded and not in the data files. The current mod slows the speed of all units by modifying the movement on different terrains.

Yes, and if the actual individual unit speed is hard coded that's a big letdown, how can CA claim this to be a moddable game when we can't even change something that simple?

The movement on terrain mod has a positive affect IMO but ofcourse does not allow specific units to be singled out and modified

I guess we are left to hope that whatever mod tools CA release will have these options.

I think killing speed is a bigger issue as far as vanilla RTW though.

[Morindin]

Yes, and if the actual individual unit speed is hard coded that's a big letdown, how can CA claim this to be a moddable game when we can't even change something that simple?

The movement on terrain mod has a positive affect IMO but ofcourse does not allow specific units to be singled out and modified

I guess we are left to hope that whatever mod tools CA release will have these options.

I think killing speed is a bigger issue as far as vanilla RTW though.

I think killing speed is fine and much more realistic than MTW. I remember my first thoughts playing MTW thinking the killing speed in battles was way too slow, especially large numbers vs small numbers.

The higher the armoured the unit in RTW the slower the killing speeds. Try out some Urban Cohorts vs Sacred band and watch them duke it out. Or even worse two hoplite units fighting.
Of course killing Gauls with no armour is quite a quick affair.

[Thon]

i gotta agree with liking the new killing speed. medieval's was far too slow, once a unit routed you could decimate it through captures, which felt right. but before the route infantry would slug it out all day unless they were totally mismatched(varangians vs spearmen), or severely outnumbered.

so far though, cavalry seems to do exactly what it could in medieval imo, it's effect is just sped up as fast as the rest of the game. in mtw infantry that was engaged already, and took a cavalry charge to their flanks or rear would route within seconds and be destroyed. maybe the crazy ones with super morale would stick it out a little longer but they'd break and run if help didn't arrive asap.

as for charging formed infantry, i havn't had to face any phalanx's yet(playing julii), but i won't be doing that with equites anymore . maybe once legionaire cavalry arrives within my armies. but i did it plenty of times in mtw, mostly when i noticed the ai didn't have any spearmen/polearms in their infantry line. my last mega campaign as the byzantines, more than once i routed and destroyed massive ai armies within minutes with a large kata/prono charge, as the vg and byz infantry watched.

[son of spam]

Cav IS OP. I think the reason some of you don't notice it is that you just charge once.

I use general cav, and I pretty much destroy anything in the way. As soon as the cav meets the enemy, I tell them to withdraw. They do so immediately, and I lose maybe one guy. In the meantime, my ubercharge kills like 10% of their unit (it's easy to charge slow inf in the flanks). Rinse, repeat. The only thing that counters my cav is enemy cav.

I suggest that cav should not be able to withdraw as easily. Once a cav charges, it should get bogged down almost immediately, and if you withdraw, you should lose a significant amount of your unit. Then you would have to be much more careful with your cav charges, instead of running them around like a panzer.

[discovery1]

No it is not what happened in real life. Real life battles usually took some time in melee, minutes or hours even. Things collapsed in minutes when flanked, not in less than 10 seconds. It takes time for panic to set in and for the men to run. I doubt you will find it realistic. Heavy infantry is peasant level in RTW with respect to morale.

But in real life, the blocks of men were MUCH larger. I'd bet that the largest army you can have, even on the largest size, is at best half the size of a rf legion(5000 men I think). It makes sense that the enemy collapses so quickly when hit in the flank, at least with these unit sizes.

[Morindin]

But in real life, the blocks of men were MUCH larger. I'd bet that the largest army you can have, even on the largest size, is at best half the size of a rf legion(5000 men I think). It makes sense that the enemy collapses so quickly when hit in the flank, at least with these unit sizes.

This is true, people forget that real life battles were fought with thousands of men and RTW are merely hundreds.

The Romans typically used three lines of battle and each line consisted of far more men than we get to play with.

Also, only early units lead by a 0 star general flee quickly. Even 0 valour Legioneer troops wont flee until they're down to a very small number of men.

The last battle I fought against the Macedonians my units of Principes with maybe 1 valour would flee when they were reduced to 15 or so men, and would put in one hell of a fight. They were only lead by a three star general too.

[Morindin]

I have to laugh at this thread. People were claiming cavalry was underpowered in MTW because swords would beat them when they charged head on (into Fresh infantry too mind you), and now people are claiming cavalry is overpowered because heaven forbid, they kill swordsmen when charging into the flank?

Golly gosh who would ever have thought.

[Thoros of Myr]

I was mainly speaking in terms of the killing speed with cav and I think as was pointed out the main problem there is the small unit sizes, shallow ranks etc... that was making it feel over the top. I'm going to play on huge from now on until maybe a mod comes out that just increases the size of infantry.

[Thon]

since i havn't faced off against any greek armies in the campaign or used much heavy cavalry, i gave about a dozen custom battles a shot.

regular hoplites vs legionaire cavalry. the legionaire cavalry doesn't do half bad, but the hoplites hold them, and even won several battles(though they were mauled). taking into account lego cavalry costs about 2x what reg hoplites do, and take 2 turns to train, i'm content with that.

armored hoplites are downright scary though, do a few custom battles with them. i tried everything i could think of short of elephants with laser eyes. lego cavalry didn't get one kill in a few battles, praetorian cavalry couldn't kill more than a half dozen with several charges before they broke. and the parthian cataphracts would be lucky to get a few kills in multiple charges

by no means did i do an exhaustive test, just several custom battles, 1 on 1, no upgrades, and a straight up charge into a phalanx's front. but nobody can convince me that heavy cavalry are some kind of unstoppable rambo's on horseback, cutting through professional spear walls like they were red shirt guys on star trek.