Cavalry way overpowered

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I was mainly speaking in terms of the killing speed with cav and I think as was pointed out the main problem there is the small unit sizes, shallow ranks etc... that was making it feel over the top. I'm going to play on huge from now on until maybe a mod comes out that just increases the size of infantry.

But people who have low spec PCs and use small unit sizes shouldn't have to sustain ridiculous and unrealistic killing speeds. Using the large unit size is just like using a chewing gum to hold a wall...

IMHO, the killing speed itself as nothing to do with ranks or unit size. It's because the game has been detoured the arcade way. Arcade newbies have no attention span for much more realistic large battles that can last for 1 or 2 hours.

Of course I'm speaking only from my experience with the demo and some mods for it...

[Morindin]

But people who have low spec PCs and use small unit sizes shouldn't have to sustain ridiculous and unrealistic killing speeds. Using the large unit size is just like using a chewing gum to hold a wall...

IMHO, the killing speed itself as nothing to do with ranks or unit size. It's because the game has been detoured the arcade way. Arcade newbies have no attention span for much more realistic large battles that can last for 1 or 2 hours.

Of course I'm speaking only from my experience with the demo and some mods for it...

It has nothing to do with arcade style or newbies with no attention span, and I find it far more realistic than waiting for a unit of 166 men to kill off a unit of 3 men, that took about 60 seconds in MTW.

Again heavily armoured troops slog it out for quite a while, maybe killing one another every 20 seconds. I have zoomed in and watched plenty of fights to observe these so called killing speeds and even unarmoured units mill around each other for about 6 seconds in a "parry" stage before taking a swipe. Sometimes it misses sometimes it hits.
Lightly armoured units tend to take that swipe much quicker resulting in fast deaths between them but the heavily armoured units do not do this at all.

[Thoros of Myr]

Theres no substitute for more men on the field.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Again heavily armoured troops slog it out for quite a while, maybe killing one another every 20 seconds. I have zoomed in and watched plenty of fights to observe these so called killing speeds and even unarmoured units mill around each other for about 6 seconds in a "parry" stage before taking a swipe.

So, tell me... ...do you realy think that, in real life combat, ANY unit could be sweeped off the field in 6 seconds?

If that was true, battles like Andrianople would have lasted about 20 min, instead of a whole day, from early morning tiill after sunset...

Sometimes it misses sometimes it hits. Lightly armoured units tend to take that swipe much quicker resulting in fast deaths between them but the heavily armoured units do not do this at all.

That should be obvious. In reality it is so also. But not at the rate we're seeing in this game. In real life, a unit is not a coerent single-minded entity. It is a collection of many men and these man react and recieve different stimulae and information throughout a battle. So, accordingly, some of them might percieve a cavalry charge on the flank, while the other flank won't know it for some minutes. We're nor talking minutes here, we're talking 1-2 seconds at the most for the whole unit to rout...

[Morindin]

So, tell me... ...do you realy think that, in real life combat, ANY unit could be sweeped off the field in 6 seconds?

If that was true, battles like Andrianople would have lasted about 20 min, instead of a whole day, from early morning tiill after sunset...



That should be obvious. In reality it is so also. But not at the rate we're seeing in this game. In real life, a unit is not a coerent single-minded entity. It is a collection of many men and these man react and recieve different stimulae and information throughout a battle. So, accordingly, some of them might percieve a cavalry charge on the flank, while the other flank won't know it for some minutes. We're nor talking minutes here, we're talking 1-2 seconds at the most for the whole unit to rout...

1. I have NEVER seen a unit being swept off the field in 6 seconds in RTW. I would challange you to provide a replay of this. I have left Histari fighting Gaul Warbands and come back minutes later to find them still slogging it out.

How many lines of battle in Andrianople, how many men? how good were the generals? Apples to Oranges. By the same account do you really think a battle comprimised of one line and a few hundred men would last all day? I really doubt it.
Have you actually been in a war? I dont know about you, but I cant imagine a fight between two light infantry units going on for very long myself, with all the other crap happening.
The more defence the unit has the longer the battles. This is like bitching in the MTW thread because fights are two quick between highland clansmen. When people have played the campaign right through and are experiancing "20 second fights" with large armies of quality troops then Ill listen.


2. Infact, in RTW, with two good generals units generally will fight almost to the death.
And I would challange this point as well, in RTW units work much better on the invidual scale than they EVER did in MTW. Mass routs are also gone too in RTW, so if you're going to critise RTW for this you have to be more harsh on MTW. Also the ONLY units I have EVER seen rout that quickly have been exhausted Gaul pathetic units already pinned. You'd rout too.
Again I point to my example of Sacred Band infantry being charged again and again and not blinking an eye. The thing that took them down in the end was a volly of Pilum.

[Armchair Athlete]

1. I have NEVER seen a unit being swept off the field in 6 seconds in RTW. I would challange you to provide a replay of this. I have left Histari fighting Gaul Warbands and come back minutes later to find them still slogging it out.

How many lines of battle in Andrianople, how many men? how good were the generals? Apples to Oranges. By the same account do you really think a battle comprimised of one line and a few hundred men would last all day? I really doubt it.
Have you actually been in a war? I dont know about you, but I cant imagine a fight between two light infantry units going on for very long myself, with all the other crap happening.
The more defence the unit has the longer the battles. This is like bitching in the MTW thread because fights are two quick between highland clansmen. When people have played the campaign right through and are experiancing "20 second fights" with large armies of quality troops then Ill listen.


2. Infact, in RTW, with two good generals units generally will fight almost to the death.
And I would challange this point as well, in RTW units work much better on the invidual scale than they EVER did in MTW. Mass routs are also gone too in RTW, so if you're going to critise RTW for this you have to be more harsh on MTW. Also the ONLY units I have EVER seen rout that quickly have been exhausted Gaul pathetic units already pinned. You'd rout too.
Again I point to my example of Sacred Band infantry being charged again and again and not blinking an eye. The thing that took them down in the end was a volly of Pilum.

What game are you playing? I have defeated entire hoplite amries with pretty much just macedonian Light Lancers, wiping units off the field very quickly. Even Spartan Hoplites succumb much easier than they should from a charge to the rear. Try an all cavalry army, the results will suprise you. Cavalry is too strong due to the speed of fast cavalry, means flaking is much easier and the main counter to cavalry (phalanxes) is very slow to manouver and highly reliant on formation. Cavalry is also much too cheap to rectruit and maintain, come on I mean a basic Iberian Infantry unit having a larger upkeep cost than a 54 man cavalry unit? I would be OK with cavalry being that powerful if they were much more expensive to recruit and maintain, Elephants were balanced well this way, cav shouldn't be that expensive but at least more than basic infantrymen.

[Morindin]

What game are you playing? I have defeated entire hoplite amries with pretty much just macedonian Light Lancers, wiping units off the field very quickly. Even Spartan Hoplites succumb much easier than they should from a charge to the rear. Try an all cavalry army, the results will suprise you. Cavalry is too strong due to the speed of fast cavalry, means flaking is much easier and the main counter to cavalry (phalanxes) is very slow to manouver and highly reliant on formation. Cavalry is also much too cheap to rectruit and maintain, come on I mean a basic Iberian Infantry unit having a larger upkeep cost than a 54 man cavalry unit? I would be OK with cavalry being that powerful if they were much more expensive to recruit and maintain, Elephants were balanced well this way, cav shouldn't be that expensive but at least more than basic infantrymen.

The only times I've used Spartan Hoplites was when played that historic battle, Siege of Sparta, against a human opponent, and my hoplites chewed up everything from any direction, including Elephants.

Also I have played against Carthagians many times and their Sacred Band infantry are pretty much invulnerable to cavalry from any direction.

Early on cavalry is powerful yes, but later on its really quite pitiful. Load up some custom battles and see for yourself.

Also the only counter to cavalry isnt Phalanxs, infact due to their speed they're a pretty crappy counter. Ranged units are pretty good vs cavalry, and Triarii cut them up like theirs no tomorrow, also if you can suck a cavalry unit into melee its pretty much dead.

The speed of cavalry is also about right, i grew up on a farm and ive ridden horses. I always found the light cav quite slow in MTW.
The only problem I have with cavalry is the "school of fish" syndrome and the fact they can change direction without any regard to momentum.

[Morindin]

Maybe this topic needs to be "Lancers are overpowered", because Roman cavalry which is what I have most of my experiance with, is hardly overpowered at all.

[Red Harvest]

1. I have NEVER seen a unit being swept off the field in 6 seconds in RTW.

WHAT??????? Check the box, you must not have the right game. They rout so fast you can't even issue an order. They will rout and be swept in a few seconds.

Sometimes the whole battle line dissolves in less than 10 seconds.

[Thoros of Myr]

adonys killing rate mod is an improvement. I played the battle of Sparta...took almost 2 hours from start to finish. Units faught long and bloody battles most taking over 5-10 mins to route. I actually had enough time to issue separate flanking orders for each engangment and never onced puased (ofcourse I never did even before this mod) and I had time to watch a little fighting, some really great animations when your down there seeing them duke it out.

[Tim]

WHAT??????? Check the box, you must not have the right game. They rout so fast you can't even issue an order. They will rout and be swept in a few seconds.

Sometimes the whole battle line dissolves in less than 10 seconds.

You said it brother. I have not fought a single batte -ok, three or four- that last more than a minute once the main forces are engaged. Its like your watching an auto-resolved battle in real-time. I realized people have different playing styles and expectations, but the combat system needs a lot of work.

Infantry speeds seem fine.
Infantry running speeds seem fast.
Ranged units running speed is insane.
I like the cavalry, but agree with the "school of fish" theory. An initial charge on the flank or rear should be devastating, but is too easy to do.
The combat speed/killing has got to be reduced.

[TheDuck]

You said it brother. I have not fought a single batte -ok, three or four- that last more than a minute once the main forces are engaged. Its like your watching an auto-resolved battle in real-time. I realized people have different playing styles and expectations, but the combat system needs a lot of work.

Infantry speeds seem fine.
Infantry running speeds seem fast.
Ranged units running speed is insane.
I like the cavalry, but agree with the "school of fish" theory. An initial charge on the flank or rear should be devastating, but is too easy to do.
The combat speed/killing has got to be reduced.

Interesting, I've done a lot of custom battles to figure out how things compare in 1v1 slug fests as well as realistic matchups. I find it all depends on how you use your units and the experience level of the AI. Higher exp. higher armor is much tougher, and just head to head typically routing happens much much later.

If you are complaining about it being too easy to flank them, you might have a point, in ancient warfare a successful flank could easily route an entire line due to the lack of an infantry unit's ability to quickly change direction (with the exception of the Romans) (I believe this ability is called 'infantry articulation', but my memory is failing me and I'm not looking at one of my many books on Roman military history). The AI does not properly protect its flanks.. and that is bad bad bad.

That said, if you leave gaps in your front line the AI will mercilessly exploit them (unlike MTW AI), I learned that the hard way the first night playing. Now its 'nice neat lines of hastati' backed by velites and covered by equites/triarii on the wings.

I don't particulary have a complaint against the game at all.. I find it fun and challenging. I'm not an MP player, so that is coloring my judgement.. but I find the difficulties of building + defense and cost of those defense units challenging.. and 1:1 battles vs. factions other than the gauls are not a pushover with affordable units. The gauls are realistically weak in comparison to Roman units. More as I get more experience (First Gaul, then Germania!)

And note.. I'm a big fan of MTW also.. and I agree with some of the responses on that also.. To have 300 soldiers surrounding the general and have him not drop in a few seconds was a little odd to me.. but that not withstanding I adore that game (and have never uninstalled it).

Games have quirks.. they are games after all. And balancing a game for MP is something that ties the best of companies up in knots (Warcraft 3 and Starcraft have gone through extensive cycles that lasted years). Creative Assembly strikes me as a company that cares, so if there are MP problems I'm sure they will be addressed.

Veni Vidi Vici!