Cavalry way overpowered

[Morindin]

Maybe this topic needs to be "Lancers are overpowered", because Roman cavalry which is what I have most of my experiance with, is hardly overpowered at all.

[Armchair Athlete]

I have tried custom battles agaist high powered units and early cavalry still does quite well considering its cheap cost. The morale penalty is still the same for being charged in the rear, whether its by Sacred band Cavalry or Equites. And advanced cavalry is just as good late in the game as early cavalry is early in the game, Sacred Band cav and Companions are great. As I said before, their effectiveness I would not mind so much if they were not so cheap to maintain, as someone who grew up with horses as I did you must surely know how expensive they can be to maintain. A bit of cavalry is good, all cavalry/majority cavalry armies are not.

[Morindin]

I have tried custom battles agaist high powered units and early cavalry still does quite well considering its cheap cost. The morale penalty is still the same for being charged in the rear, whether its by Sacred band Cavalry or Equites. And advanced cavalry is just as good late in the game as early cavalry is early in the game, Sacred Band cav and Companions are great. As I said before, their effectiveness I would not mind so much if they were not so cheap to maintain, as someone who grew up with horses as I did you must surely know how expensive they can be to maintain. A bit of cavalry is good, all cavalry/majority cavalry armies are not.

Go check out the screenshots thread in the entrance hall. You will see a screenshot posted by me.

It contains a group of Praeton or whatever Cavalry charging into the flank of a group of Sacred Band, while they [the sacred band] are engaging and pinned by Legions.

Let me tell you something, not only did I take heavy loses, but the Sacred Band took minimal loses and it took a volly of pilums for them to break.

According to you, the Sacred band should have broken and routed right then. Didnt happen.

[Armchair Athlete]

Go check out the screenshots thread in the entrance hall. You will see a screenshot posted by me.

It contains a group of Praeton or whatever Cavalry charging into the flank of a group of Sacred Band, while they [the sacred band] are engaging and pinned by Legions.

Let me tell you something, not only did I take heavy loses, but the Sacred Band took minimal loses and it took a volly of pilums for them to break.

According to you, the Sacred band should have broken and routed right then. Didnt happen.

Seen that screenshot, that was a small generals cavalry unit, not a main cavalry unit. In fact I think the generals cavalry unit is much more balanced than real cavalry, due to its smaller size. I also believe I said in my original post that infantry is only good for defending and conducting sieges, cavalry for everything else, and as that was a siege, my point still holds firm. In a siege it is difficult to get a good run to build up enough speed to crash into the back of a unit, and so the charge momentum is reduced. But you're STILL missing my point. Cavalry is so cheap it can be fielded in large amounts. The best way to counter cavalry is to pin it with one unit then charge with another. Thats a minimum of two units to defeat one unit of cavalry. What are the other cavalry units doing? Charging into the back of whatever unit is attacking the pinned cavalry unit. And thats not even mentioning cavalry with a missile attack. Here is a quick table in which you can see just how cheap cavalry really is

Hastati/Iberian Infantry upkeep per unit - 170 per man - 2.125
Town Watch/Militia Hoplite upkeep per unit - 100 per man - 1.25
Equites upkeep per unit - 110 per man - 2.037
Macedonian Cavalry/Light Lancers upkeep per unit - 140 per man - 2.59

Many of the other units follow these amounts, light infantry being around 170, light cavalry being in the region of 120-140 and militia being 100. Now, to repeat myself a THIRD time, how is that balanced? Why on earth is cavalry cheaper to maintain than light infantry? It is just as easy to get too. Not to mention that cavalry has a much larger move on the campaign map too. Elephants ar every strong too. They are not overpowered I believe because of their very high cost. Now I will say it again, this time even in a new paragraph so you get the point

relative to cost, cavalry is easily the most effective units in the game. They need to be more expensive.

[Morindin]

Seen that screenshot, that was a small generals cavalry unit, not a main cavalry unit. In fact I think the generals cavalry unit is much more balanced than real cavalry, due to its smaller size. I also believe I said in my original post that infantry is only good for defending and conducting sieges, cavalry for everything else, and as that was a siege, my point still holds firm. In a siege it is difficult to get a good run to build up enough speed to crash into the back of a unit, and so the charge momentum is reduced. But you're STILL missing my point. Cavalry is so cheap it can be fielded in large amounts. The best way to counter cavalry is to pin it with one unit then charge with another. Thats a minimum of two units to defeat one unit of cavalry. What are the other cavalry units doing? Charging into the back of whatever unit is attacking the pinned cavalry unit. And thats not even mentioning cavalry with a missile attack. Here is a quick table in which you can see just how cheap cavalry really is

Hastati/Iberian Infantry upkeep per unit - 170 per man - 2.125
Town Watch/Militia Hoplite upkeep per unit - 100 per man - 1.25
Equites upkeep per unit - 110 per man - 2.037
Macedonian Cavalry/Light Lancers upkeep per unit - 140 per man - 2.59

Many of the other units follow these amounts, light infantry being around 170, light cavalry being in the region of 120-140 and militia being 100. Now, to repeat myself a THIRD time, how is that balanced? Why on earth is cavalry cheaper to maintain than light infantry? It is just as easy to get too. Not to mention that cavalry has a much larger move on the campaign map too. Elephants ar every strong too. They are not overpowered I believe because of their very high cost. Now I will say it again, this time even in a new paragraph so you get the point

relative to cost, cavalry is easily the most effective units in the game. They need to be more expensive.

I had a battle last night against the Macedonians. The Macedonians had two armies mainly of hoplites and lancers.

I have 4 units of Triarii, 8 units of Principes, three units of archers, and the rest my own cavalry. I lots that battle (mainly to the damn hoplites) and completely eliminated ALL his cavarly.

My 4 units of Triarii that successfully defeated around 10 units of Lancers and other assorted cavalry and still lived to see another day. The computer even charged withdrew charged withdrew, and used some very clever tactics to lure my Triarii out into the open. Hell some of them did get draw out and surrounded and they still routed his cavalry.
These were FRESH Triarii too that had never seen battle.

You seem to be making your entire basis on the fact that cavalry are overpowered against "swords". This is true, but against Triarii and Aux Spearmen in my experiances they get slaughted.
I wish you could record single player replays because I have plenty of them now of Triarii destroying hordes of Macedonian cavalry.
I dont know what the upkeep of Triarii is (I imagine its quite high) but a 4:10 ratio is OK in my books.

Equites suck by the way, they get slaughtered by a warband in a 1v1.

[Kraxis]

I know this is probably moot, but what about an MP battle?

List here what you normally do and do it against each other.

So far it sounds like the cavalrypeople claim they can carry everything before them, frontally, flanking, whatever...
Spearpeople claim that is not possible.
(please stop me if I have jumped to conclusions)

Well, what about a test? And cheating is very counterproductive here, can't make a point if you change the parameters.
I can understand if someone is inexperienced in MP and might not believe he has a chance, but again this isn't about skill but rather situations.

[Morindin]

Good idea Kraxis

Using the paper-scissors-rock system:

I bet a full army of Triarii will beat a full army of anything cavalry, including Elephants.

I have a feeling (but do not bet) an army of 14 Triarii and 6 Aux Archers will slaugher cavalry even more, perhaps not elephants however.

I bet a full army of Cavalry will beat a full army of anything non spear, as it should do.