The Phalanx: A collection of retards with long sticks.

[Colovion]

So I just started my Greek Cities campaign and was assaulting Corinth. I sap the wall and move two units of Hoplites in, their General is waiting for me on the other side. As I get through the walls the General charges at my Phalanx units - 'no problem' I think, cause you know - you have these huge spears and a horse is the easiest thing to hit. I guess not as half of both of those units gets decimated by the General's charge before he runs back to the town square. I thought it was a little strange but since I had killed all but two of his Cav it wasn't that bad. I run my Hoplites up to the town square and set them up, ready to take the Light Lancer charge. I move them forward to attack the Lancers and they charge right into my front - destroying all 70 or so Hoplites I had setup perfectly - they just jumped over my spears and slaughtered my guys. It makes sense if I was 2 deep - but being 4 rows deep this is stupitidy at it's finest. Since I had another unit of Hoplites plus some Spartans I wasn't losing hope altogether. I send in another unit of Hoplites to mop up the lancers who lost 10 Cav in the carge. Long story short 70 more Hoplites from one unit gets destroyed by the leftover lancers. I needed to send in my Spartans to finish the job.

So there went my big army and I don't really see my chances as becoming a great Faction when my key units can't even do one of their main functions: KILL CHARGING HORSES. I quit in disgust and is the first time I've been frusterated enough to quit the game.

PS - I forgot to say that those 70 Hoplites I sent in second were setup and I told them to attack but they seemed to like pivoting and turning so that their side was facing the enemy, not their spears. I hope this is a bug or I really don't see myself playing my potentially favourite faction at all.

[Thoros of Myr]

*I think now the problem is your were attacking with the pahalanx rather then defending*

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Another hint at the OP cavalry...

[Thoros of Myr]

Nah, I think it's the phalanx is too weak and/or thier bonuses are not working.

[cegman]

No I don't think it is that I think it is activision weakening stuff like fatuige and probably bonuses vrs. units.

[Thon]

their General is waiting for me on the other side. As I get through the walls the General charges at my Phalanx units - 'no problem' I think, cause you know - you have these huge spears and a horse is the easiest thing to hit. I guess not as half of both of those units gets decimated by the General's charge before he runs back to the town square.

did the hoplites get charged as they went through the hole in the wall, or when they were formed as a phalanx and ready?

[Morindin]

Im currently fighting the Macedonians and I have charged their hoplites accidently front on, on numerous occasions, and the end result was plenty of dead horses. These are Urban Hoplites and Phalanax Hoplites.

I dont know what game you're playing, but hoplites vs anything front on = hoplites win.

[Thon]

i tried light lancers vs regular hoplites, hoplites destroyed them while taking 14 casulties

[Doug-Thompson]

Do phalanx's have a "special ability," or whatever?

[discovery1]

The phalanx is the hoplite/pikemans special formation. Did you order the units that were actaully digging the tunnel into the breach? If so, you may have sent them into battle not in phalax formation.

[Morindin]

Do phalanx's have a "special ability," or whatever?

Most spear units can form a "phalanx" which is just that. It also moves extreeemeeely slowly.

[Thon]

i think having them on guard mode along with phalanx helps

[Thoros of Myr]

Huge unit size
Very Hard diff
basic Hoplite (161) vs Basic Gen's guard (49)

Hoplite took about 32 losses Gen's Guard took 39 losses and routed after charging in 2 times. The cav are scripted to always have the horses jump over the line of spears and that does cuase some damage and loss of formation to the phalanx but the second row of horses is sluaghtered.

They were set on guard mode aswell and kept perfectly still while recieving the charge, I noticed on another test if your hoplites are moving AT ALL the bonus goes out the window.

[DisruptorX]

Phalanx are god, if it weren't for them, I wouldn't play the stupid game. You just need to fight defensively. I am currently owning as the greeks.

here are some Romans who are about to be pwned. I lost less than 30 hoplites in the battles, and killed over 200 enemies in combat, 500 being cut down whilst fleeing.


Notice the mercs behind my middle unit, I knew the general cavalry would leap over my unit with that retarded "school of fish" junk, so I put that unit there. It worked, the general did exactly that and my mercs slaughtered him. I killed 3 generals bodyguard units in that battle.


Btw, I have quit to desktop twice in anger in RTW. In MTW, I have never done that, ever.

[Colovion]

I just did a couple custom battles.

Equites vs Hoplites went almost how I thought it would with me winning with only losing 11 units. However, this was three different charges that they were able to perform - charging, jumping my spears, and then withdrawing with minor casualties only to do it again. In fact, at one time their whole front line actually jumped clear over my formation, through the diagonally positioned spears and landed on the other side...


I fought a few more and even though the Custom Battle AI seems a little sketchy (half the time they just walked straight into the front of the phalanx, not even charging) they did retreat to reform and charge again. They would try to walk around my flank and did flank me a few times on other kinds of matchups.

WInning vs Katatanks with Armoured Hoplites was difficult, but I eventually won.

Maybe it was that Phalanx units dont' like fighting in cities because prettymuch all of my custom battles went my way with the phalanx....

[Colovion]

I think I know what went wrong. I turned off "Gaurd Mode" on teh phalanx for some reason (it's on automatically) and that's probably why I lost.

DistruptorX What do you mean "fight defensively" ? You need to attack sometimes.

[DisruptorX]

However, this was three different charges that they were able to perform - charging, jumping my spears, and then withdrawing with minor casualties only to do it again. In fact, at one time their whole front line actually jumped clear over my formation, through the diagonally positioned spears and landed on the other side...

Yes, that's why my mercenaries are posisitioned right behind my middle unit. I knew that would happen and I was ready for it. It worked, too. The guys who jumped my middle unit were slaughtered by the one behind it.

DistruptorX What do you mean "fight defensively" ? You need to attack sometimes.

Nope, I never attack. Even when beseiging, unless I am auto-calc ing. I let the enemy come to me. I call it a "defensive campaign of conquest". I form semi-circles with my pikes and put cavalry in the back.

[Morindin]

I just did a couple custom battles.

Equites vs Hoplites went almost how I thought it would with me winning with only losing 11 units. However, this was three different charges that they were able to perform - charging, jumping my spears, and then withdrawing with minor casualties only to do it again. In fact, at one time their whole front line actually jumped clear over my formation, through the diagonally positioned spears and landed on the other side...


I fought a few more and even though the Custom Battle AI seems a little sketchy (half the time they just walked straight into the front of the phalanx, not even charging) they did retreat to reform and charge again. They would try to walk around my flank and did flank me a few times on other kinds of matchups.

WInning vs Katatanks with Armoured Hoplites was difficult, but I eventually won.

Maybe it was that Phalanx units dont' like fighting in cities because prettymuch all of my custom battles went my way with the phalanx....

Phalanx love cities.
I just had a massive huge battle against the AI where he assaulted my town with Phalanx's. Hard to flank them in city streets and they mow down everything infront of them.

[Thoros of Myr]

In that city battle was your pahalanx moving at all when you recieved the charge? If they are the bonus is gone. You gave to be on guard mode too I think or they wont hold formation as well.

*haha DisrupterX, jumped the whole unit only to land on another, that'll put some fear in the cav units *

[Colovion]

Huge unit size
Very Hard diff
basic Hoplite (161) vs Basic Gen's guard (49)

Hoplite took about 32 losses Gen's Guard took 39 losses and routed after charging in 2 times. The cav are scripted to always have the horses jump over the line of spears and that does cuase some damage and loss of formation to the phalanx but the second row of horses is sluaghtered.

They were set on guard mode aswell and kept perfectly still while recieving the charge, I noticed on another test if your hoplites are moving AT ALL the bonus goes out the window.

Well... yea I was attacking because they always sit in the middle of the square so I had to attack.... I guess the phalanx being the offensive meatgrinder isn't true?

[Thoros of Myr]

phalanx vs phalanx you might be able to act offensive but against any decent cav it's suicide.

[Colovion]

phalanx vs phalanx you might be able to act offensive but against any decent cav it's suicide.

That sounds like a load of crock to me (realistically) - how hard is it to advance towards an enemy and stab them with the huge spear in your hand while raising your sheild?

Then again on teh flipside I guess this is one more thing I'll have the pleasure of micromanaging on an ultra fast paced battlefield.

[Thoros of Myr]

That sounds like a load of crock to me (realistically) - how hard is it to advance towards an enemy and stab them with the huge spear in your hand while raising your sheild?

It appears the battle system doesent allow for that distinction, atleast not against cav.

[hoof]

Phalanxes definitely require special handling. They are awesome when set, and someone attacks from straight ahead (although I have vivid memorys of a cataphract unit marching straight through my set phalanx like they were butter ).

The problems are:

1) they turn *very* slowly, thus require considerable advance warning (this is their main weakness, as lone phalanxes are very easy to outflank and kill)

2) Ordering them to do anything other than stand and fight will disrupt their formation and make them ineffective. And the AI always seem to attack when my guys are milling around after a misunderstood order or ill-timed formation change

3) They move to one side during combat. I'm guessing this is a historical tactic (maybe so that 2 phalanxes can try to "flank" the other, but this requires a formation rotation when you reach the end of the enemy formation, which the RTW phalanxes don't do).

4) The AI doesn't seem to like turning off Phalanx mode. This could have something to do with issue #1, making it simpler to leave Phalanx mode on for the AI. I, personally, prefer to turn Phalanx mode off until I need it, this allows them much more maneuverability.

#3 is the most annoying, especially in tight streets. Does anyone know how to keep them from sliding sideways? Most situations I do not want them to do this. Now I deliberately position them off-center so that their sideways movement will keep the most points on target for the longest period of time. Nothing is more annoying than a crucial Phalanx sliding out of position when defending a gate or street.

However, when set, and when the enemy comes towards you, they are awesome to watch. Cavalry units melt when charging the points (other than the really powerful cavalry), and very little can take a Phalanx head on.

[Morindin]

Phalanxes definitely require special handling. They are awesome when set, and someone attacks from straight ahead (although I have vivid memorys of a cataphract unit marching straight through my set phalanx like they were butter ).

The problems are:

1) they turn *very* slowly, thus require considerable advance warning (this is their main weakness, as lone phalanxes are very easy to outflank and kill)

2) Ordering them to do anything other than stand and fight will disrupt their formation and make them ineffective. And the AI always seem to attack when my guys are milling around after a misunderstood order or ill-timed formation change

3) They move to one side during combat. I'm guessing this is a historical tactic (maybe so that 2 phalanxes can try to "flank" the other, but this requires a formation rotation when you reach the end of the enemy formation, which the RTW phalanxes don't do).

4) The AI doesn't seem to like turning off Phalanx mode. This could have something to do with issue #1, making it simpler to leave Phalanx mode on for the AI. I, personally, prefer to turn Phalanx mode off until I need it, this allows them much more maneuverability.

#3 is the most annoying, especially in tight streets. Does anyone know how to keep them from sliding sideways? Most situations I do not want them to do this. Now I deliberately position them off-center so that their sideways movement will keep the most points on target for the longest period of time. Nothing is more annoying than a crucial Phalanx sliding out of position when defending a gate or street.

However, when set, and when the enemy comes towards you, they are awesome to watch. Cavalry units melt when charging the points (other than the really powerful cavalry), and very little can take a Phalanx head on.

I've found they're great for attacking (yes) breaches in walls when you're seiging, because naturally they cant be flanked and with their long spears push the defenders back. Also when I have used them setting them to "guard" mode stops them moving around, or at least I've never had that issue.

[Red Harvest]

Phalanx units naturally do pull to one side, the right. It has to do with the shield placement. The natural inclination is to move your uncovered spear side toward the cover of the shield next to you (on your right.)

This page has an interesting description of hoplites.

http://www.siue.edu/ROTC/phalanx.doc

[Jeanne d'arc]

So using these guys defensivly makes them pretty much unbeatable in the front?

[Underhand]

Realistically, cavalry should not be able to charge a formed phalanx head on. The reason is that a horse will not charge what to it appears to be a solid object if it can possibly avoid it. Since in a, for argument's sake, Macedonian style phalanx each man had two feet of frontage the result is a very tightly packed mass of men giving the appearance of an insurmountable obstacle, the horse will take any other route over charging straight into the formation. An example is that at the battle of Gaugamela or Arbela (depending on what you like to call it), Alexander's phalanx opened lanes down which the Persian scythed chariots (pulled by horses, of course of course) trotted until their momentum ran out, despite the protests of the drivers, leaving them to be overwhelmed by supporting light infantry behind the phalanx. Another example is that during the Napoleonic wars, they had to train special suicidal horses to charge square formations, thus disrupting them so the rest of the cavalry could charge in and destroy the infantry unit.

I don't know what's going on with cavalry leaping over phalanx units that people are observing, since I doubt a horse would really try to leap eight or sixteen ranks of men and their pikes unless it really had no other option.

Also, pikes were really not good in urban warfare. The reason is of course that it's very rare that you can find sufficient space in a city to form up as a phalanx properly. Indeed Alexander the Great's phalangites were trained to use swords and javelins instead of pikes in such situations. Although admittedly the later successors generally didn't have such professional armies.

Well-trained pikemen should be practically unbeatable frontally when slowly advancing on level terrain as well as when on the defense, but should be at a disadvantage when on broken terrain, and at a severe disadvantage when flanked, since formation is everything for pikemen.

[Thon]

i don't think i've ever seen cavalry jump over an entire unit yet, but i'm usually not zoomed in during a battle. during custom trials i saw most cavalry try and leap over a phalanx, only to get killed mid-air by the spears. do people have their infantry spread out 2-men deep or something that have this happen?

[Kraxis]

Phalanx units naturally do pull to one side, the right. It has to do with the shield placement. The natural inclination is to move your uncovered spear side toward the cover of the shield next to you (on your right.)

Indeed... But only during the advance. When contact was made the hoplite had enough to do just pushing back at the enemy to actually worry about getting on the inside of his buddy. And in any case the hoplite would at that point have turned his body to create a better push (how do you push when you can't really use your hands? You use your shoulder while leaning a bit forwards), thus he would be within his own shield.

Further, the pikeformations did not shift to the side as they had too small shields to cover each other (thus creating no reason to lean to the right). So while the hoplite formation can be argued to shift, the pikes can't.

And my last point. While it is historically correct to a degree is does subtract from the experience (yes I know about it from the demo). Phalanxes are slow, hard to turn, bad without their pikes and easy to flank, we simply don't need any more problems with them. The only way to make this 'go away' is to have a long line of many pike/hoplite units, having a few can disrupt the whole line if they are not next to each other.