Roman: Julii

[Quintus.JC]

I still used TW, but only two, they are pretty useless . . . and I have stacks of them . . . like a bad investment . . .

Town Watch are useful as garrison for your settlements. They don't need as much wages as the Hastati and aren't as weak as peasants. They made fine policemen and firemen.

Edit: To Charlevan, I made a useful post explaining the Marian Reformation. It is in the page before this. page 20

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Town Watch are useful as garrison for your settlements. They don't need as much wages as the Hastati and aren't as weak as peasants. They made fine policemen and firemen.

Edit: To Charlevan, I made a useful post explaining the Marian Reformation. It is in the page before this. page 20

Town Watch is really the only useful garrison if you're running 1.5 or later as CA halved the garrison value of peasants.

Town Watch can be useful in battle if:

1) you can slam one enemy with 2-3 of them in a semi-circle

2) you just need a temporary anvil for a minute or so until you bring in the hammer from the flank

-- Just remember, in battle, TW needs to be put into a box formation and given depth in order to act as an anvil. If you try to use them in 4 lines or less to cover frontage, they tend to be too fragile as they don't have pila to short punch a charge or any kind of phalanx porcupine effect. If a horse group shatters their formation, they route in seconds. If deep enough to absorb the impact, they'll often fight for you long enough for you to unleash a really good counter shot.


Triarii are, by my lights, vastly over-rated. Their only virtue is that they die slowly in battle so that you can use them as a very good anvil to unleash other attacks. Standard Roman infantry with sword and pila is just so much more flexible and lethal that I rarely bother with Triarii except to stop up the end of a bridge.

Moreover, since Triarii are recruitable, in most games, only for a few years prior to the onset of the reforms, you never field enough of them to really make the difference. All-in-all, I just work to up-armor/weap my principes and buy rental spears for the flanks.


Velites are an essential component of an early Roman army. A thin triple row loose formation unit of them fronting your heavy infantry line prevents most of a charge from hammering your infantry and often lets the heavies get off BOTH pila (1 as they come in, then switch to manual fire and double click a counter charge). The velite screen is knackered, but they're cheap to replace and your regular infantry will usually do better.

In addition, velites should be your preferred choice for the ladder/tower NOT facing an enemy on the walls during siege assault. They can get up, race around converting towers, and then fling javelins down from the walls on the remaining enemy gate-blocker group. Fun stuff.

Velites can even be used as a cheap stop-gap replacement for archers. Use them just as you would archers from just behind the battle line -- with you choosing the targets -- and you'll be surprised how many charging leaders they kill for you or key enemy units they deplete. They only have 6 rounds, so they can't fire for the whole battle like archers, but their shots hit very hard and in many battles -- especially against barbs -- its too quick to the melee for the archers to get off most of their shots anyhow.

[Iñnsomñni]

I have just recently started a new campaign as the Julii, and i found that these tips seem to work better than my older ones

Expansion
Dont give the Gauls any time to concentrate their forces in Italy, firstly, you will see that you have two relatively small army's, dont merge these, use the smaller one (the one without the triarii) to attack Segesta, while using the other to attack Patavium, both within the first turn, (apart from you wont be able to reach Patavium during the first turn, so on the second turn attack it). During the first turn, add to your building que Ports if the city doesnt have them, and roads, if the city has a port, add a farming building to the que, in the nearest city to Segesta, if the city can already recruit Hastati, add 4 units to your recruitment que, these will come in handy in he next few turns.

When you attack Segesta, on my campaign there was a warband and a group of barbarian peasants (i play my camapaigns on medium/medium) You should advance with your Hastati, with the vetilites showering the enemy with javelins, then your Hastati will do the same, engage the enemy with your Hastati, then flank the peasants with your Generals bodyguard (easier to make them rout) and kill as many as possible before they begin to defend again.

When attacking Patavium, i think there was 2 groups of warbands, a group of barbarian peasants, and some light cavalry. Engage the warbands and peasants with your Hastati, while showering them with arrows from your roman archers, then when you are in the wall, to stop the light cavalry taking part in the action, put the triarii behind your lines so they arent tempted to join. Then just advance your triarii up to the cavalry, offering them some Hastati as bait, then massacre them, and then just rush and flank the remaining defenders, and the city should be yours...

Next, build up your economy for a few turns while your Hastati arrive from the Recruitment centre in your city. A few generals should have come of age, so give him the Hastati, get some archers from a nearby city (they arent essential for this part) and attack Mediolanium, i cant really remember what the Garrison was like here, a General joined with the other General and tried to flank me. Well, from completing previous missions you should have gained some Triarii (i think taking Segesta makes the Senate give you them) the just massacre the horses, massacre the infantry and you have taken Mediolanium.

You might also be asked to take one of the Carthaginian cities on one of the two large islands to the west of Italy, it is weakly guarded (i think the garrison had something like a group of Town Guards and a group of Peasants). Two groups of Hastati and a General can take this settlement easily, so i wouldnt take any of your men away from your borders. I do not believe this city has very good Economic value, its isnt a trade hub as you are at war with the Gauls and Carthaginians, and its pretty undeveloped, without having a wooden stockade and only perhaps only a wierd Carthaginian shrine. In my campaign the Carthaginians couldnt really be bothered to retake it, they were busy attacking the Scipii.

These cities are good starting points because both Mediolanium and Patavium have good income, they are mostly surrounded by Rebel settlements and create a good Platform to launch your attacks on the Gauls. I wouldn suggest doing much with the city on the large islands, it wont be making much trade income, id just leave it, maybe build a few things like farms and try to improve its population. (sorry i havent added more, i havent got that far yet )

Economy
Once i had taken Northern Italy, i decided to build roads and ports (if the towns didnt already have them) and tried to upgrade them so they would provide more income, but i also focused on preparing my borders for another offensive on the Gauls. I tried to upgrade to atleast a barracks which made Hastati available.

Tactics
Towards the start of the game, with the majority of your armies being extremely light, and your only heavy units being Generals Bodyguards, your tactics should always be to attempt to flank your opponent and hit them hard on the front at exactly the same time, causing them to rout. Im not sure youll encounter many horse archers as you fight the Gauls, so i would suggest building solely infantry, missles and adding a Generals Bodyguard to the army. Some of the Mercenaries are ok, expecially the Warbands, which can provide support or have an increased change of defeating Warlord Cavalry as they have spears...

Well i would type more, but i cant think of anything more at the moment, ill have a think about it and may edit this post

[RLucid]

Town Watch is really the only useful garrison if you're running 1.5 or later as CA halved the garrison value of peasants.

Sure that's not a BI thing? In my 1.5 though I tend to use TW as garrison if available, peasants seem to keep unrest down in a town more than a TW unit (50% extra manpower).

If you use TW on battlefield, use them generally defensively to hold & fix cavalry, protecting rear or flanks. Have some missile troops to drop the opponents before the TW sap. If you flank with them, then time the attack for when the opposition are beginning to tire, and about to waver, the extra numbers against them may lead to rout starting.

I prefer Barb merc spear warbands for anti-cavalry flanking troops, due to their greater effectiveness against light-cavalry and their combat bonus in woods.

TW do make good cheap fodder to block the charge of enemy heavy cavalry (useful in some towns making chicanes), and save casualties in prime hard to replace units like Triarii who can then counter-charge a stationary opponent.

Triarii are, by my lights, vastly over-rated. Their only virtue is that they die slowly in battle

They are quite well armoured, so can take some missile fire. But their main attribute, is that they're spearmen, and effective against cavalry. The problem is that you only have max. 2 Triarii (1 from Senate mission) and can't replace them until later on, when you can afford to recruit as many spearmen mercs as you like.

[Praetor Rick]

They are quite well armoured, so can take some missile fire. But their main attribute, is that they're spearmen, and effective against cavalry. The problem is that you only have max. 2 Triarii (1 from Senate mission) and can't replace them until later on, when you can afford to recruit as many spearmen mercs as you like.

That's only a problem as Julii, and not even always then. If you can nab some high pop cities from somewhere, enslaving can get your big 4 cities in northern Italy high enough to produce Triarii very quickly.

Basically, if you ignore Gaul mostly and go straight for Spain, or potentially if you nab parts of Sicily or even Carthage itself from the Scipii, you can grow population very quickly by taking slaves. You just have to decide to leave the Gauls alone for a while, because they're not going to have enough city pop to do the job.

Even at best, though, it's nowhere near as nice as Greece or Egypt.

[RLucid]

Basically, if you ignore Gaul mostly and go straight for Spain, or potentially if you nab parts of Sicily or even Carthage itself from the Scipii, you can grow population very quickly by taking slaves. You just have to decide to leave the Gauls alone for a while, because they're not going to have enough city pop to do the job.

Even taking Carthage tends not to give you enough pop for Army barracks, unless you have only the biggest city as governor. But then that leaves the question of how you deal with the Elephants, that tend to be in Carthage. Skirmishers who are running away, being chased do no damage and are likely to get routed, so some kind of spearmen are still required to fix the Ele's.

Also prioritising Triarii, also delays fulfillment of victory conditions, the fact is there are perfectly good anti-cavalry mercenary spearmen available, to balance the army with. Far better solution than distorting the campaign.

Furthermore if you (as you should) take the N. Italian cities from Gaul to have the "Big 4", then Gaul is going to be launching attacks against you, and if you are waiting around, then they'll send Family Noble Cavalry as well as light cavalry, so you are still better off recruiting additional spearmen.

[Bartholemew-Varath]

Well this is what i would probably do, it mainly covers Innsomnni's points towards the start:
Notice that i play on Medium/Medium

Expansion
Towards the start, you have two armies, one with triarii and the other without triarii, use the one without triarii to attack Segesta, i believe there are two units there, some barbarian peasants and a warband. Just send in your hastati, shower them with pila from both your Vetilites (missile) and Hastati (light infantry), then rush into them locking them in place, then flank them with your Generals bodyguard (heavy cavalry) and you should be able to take Segesta with minimum casualties.

You have an army with Triarii (spearmen) in, and it also has your faction leader in it, Flavius Julius, attack Patavium, which i think has 2 units of warbands in it (light infantry) and a unit of barbarian cavalry (light cavalry) Adjust your tactics to deal with them.

Next, you will need to focus on kicking the Gauls out of Italy, to do this you will need units from your captial (i would suggest building Hastati and whatever other units you want from turn 1) Then bring a general (at the time you decide to attack, with me a family member came of age so he led the attack) Take it as quickly as possible, and remember to never end the battle, kill them all!

Now you have a few choices to make, you can attack the Gauls, go for the riches of Carthage, go east to the rebel cities and Dacia, Scythia, Thracia and Macedon and the Greek Cities, you can go north and attack Germania, or perhaps you could attack the Spanish.

Decisions
The only choice i personally have done is the Gauls, as they become a pest sending their heavy cavalry, which can litterally tear apart an army of 1000 soldiers by themselves (just take the advice, i wouldnt try it out). Well first you will need a defensive position to lauch your attacks from, i personally chose Massalia, which is on an island and lightly defended. (I wont go over the unit stuff again, ill just go over town and stuff)

Then i suggest taking Narbo Matius, which might be highly defended, it may not, it depends on the diplomatic situation of Spain and Gauls.

From here, i wouldnt bother with the town in Spain just yet, i would instead go for the town the Gauls have in western France, which is ususally lightly defended.

Then i suggest attacking the town in North West of France, which is usually defended be half a stack.

Im not sure about this, but i think there is another Galic town next to the first Britannia town in Belgium. Take this, i cant remember anything about the garrison.

Then take the Galic capital, and if the Spanish or Carthaginians havent taken it, the Galic region in central Spain.

The Rebels
You might consider taking Segestica, Salona and the other two rebel cities near Dacia and Germania. These dont give much in the way of economy, but they provide training for generals, as they mainly have pila throwers (i think theyre called Samenite infantry?)

Carthage
Havent done this before, im too afraid of those elephants to go anywhere near Carthage. I suppose you could attempt to steal Syracuse and the other city in Sicily from Scipii and then move into Carthage itself, taking the islands as you go along too.

Germania
I havent really been into central Europe that much, so im not entirely sure what you would do here.

Spain
Havent got that far in my Julii campaign yet, perhaps you might just attack the east and move onto the west?

Breaking Alliances or Keeping them?
If you had already allied with Spain, now is the time to break the alliance, as i didnt, and got attacked by three full stacks of Spanish soldiers at Narbo Matius, which was guarded by half a stack. Luckily i had some Hastati, Principines and a general on their way to take over Spain, so i diverted them and managed to slaughter the Spanish troops.

If you have allied Germania, (i reccomend you do) they will probably help you kick Britannia out of Belgium and whatever else they have conquered.

An alliance with Dacia is ok, as they probably wont attack you, they are busy fighting off attacks from the Thracians and the Scythians (maybe Macedon too)

Economy
I would suggest building ports, roads and farms in every town you conquer, perhaps mines too. I tend to have my taxes at high if i can, but with starting cities that it is not possible to kill them all, i would usually have it at Normal or low. Also newly conquered Barbarian settlements i usually keep on low taxes for a few turns, so they can get used to it.

Tactics

Towards the start of the game, with the majority of your armies being extremely light, and your only heavy units being Generals Bodyguards, your tactics should always be to attempt to flank your opponent and hit them hard on the front at exactly the same time, causing them to rout. Im not sure youll encounter many horse archers as you fight the Gauls, so i would suggest building solely infantry, missles and adding a Generals Bodyguard to the army. Some of the Mercenaries are ok, expecially the Warbands, which can provide support or have an increased change of defeating Warlord Cavalry as they have spears...

I agree with this statement, your starting armies are exceptionaly light, so flanking is a must, and spears as scarce, so you might want to hire some phalanxes or bribe some spearmen.

Also, since your Hastati throw Pila, you might consider ambushing, i find it useful when being attacked, they just run straight into your hastati, and if you have fire at will on, you might be able to rout a few units before they even reach you.

[RLucid]

If you think "Economy of Force" and "Maximising Effect" is important then consider :

Segesta can be taken with Quintus + Velites unit, then garrisoned by TW 2nd turn. So you can take all the Vet. Hastati units together, and go attack Gaul immediately, without producing more units. The over-powered Archer unit plus similarly over-powered General's cavalry, will break opposition and win the battle.

The problem I found, with the immediate thrust N. attacking the Gauls, is what direction then? You want to go both ways, taking Segestica & Salona for the mining resources, but the Senate may divert you off to Caralis, and you still need to weaken the Gauls. The trouble is, you can't move both ways at once without diverting forces, and the Gauls can still raise large armies which can overwhelm understrength forces.

Then you have a fleet first turn, which doesn't do very much. Later on 2 ships need re-inforcing, because of the strong liklihood of running into a 2x50 Pirate fleet.

Perhaps a solution, is to take Salona & Segestica, later on, hiring some mercs to pad out a family general plus Town Watch force. That requires a port and ship early on at Arrinium, if you don't weaken the main force moving overland SE from Patavium.

Taking Massilia asap, and the Illyrian mine towns, allows moving W re-inforced with Illyrian missile troops and Merc spearmen, fighting the main Gaul armies out of town, to reduce losses to Hastati, and keep momentum up; with a balanced less Hastati based army. Because you don't move against Gaul right away, the Senate 2nd mission tends to be Mediolanum, Patavium or Narbo, to get you involved with the Gauls. That fits in nicely with the main gameplan.

The idea is that with sufficiently low losses, once rolling you don't have to pause the attack to regroup, losses can be made up by a couple of follow on re-inforcement units. Any ceasefire against Gaul is for strategic reasons, to allow actions against Carthage or the Greek Cities; but you extract tribute and trade to bolster economic development.

Once the Gaul provinces in N. Italy are cleared, behind the natural defensible border on the Rhone, the main army can now ship West to take Narbo, move to Spain, the Peloponese, or go South on the seas to take Caralis & Carthage.

[Praetor Rick]

Even taking Carthage tends not to give you enough pop for Army barracks, unless you have only the biggest city as governor. But then that leaves the question of how you deal with the Elephants, that tend to be in Carthage. Skirmishers who are running away, being chased do no damage and are likely to get routed, so some kind of spearmen are still required to fix the Ele's.

Also prioritising Triarii, also delays fulfillment of victory conditions, the fact is there are perfectly good anti-cavalry mercenary spearmen available, to balance the army with. Far better solution than distorting the campaign.

Furthermore if you (as you should) take the N. Italian cities from Gaul to have the "Big 4", then Gaul is going to be launching attacks against you, and if you are waiting around, then they'll send Family Noble Cavalry as well as light cavalry, so you are still better off recruiting additional spearmen.

With Carthage, if you take it, it *IS* the big city in almost any empire. I've had Carthage and Patavium producing Triarii quite quickly, although it wasn't a short campaign - I believe I had 15 provinces at the time, and I wasn't dilly-dallying. I just decided to see if I could contain, rather than destroy Gaul, because the Gauls are typically about the least threatening hostile neighbor you can have. Sure, eventually they produce barbarian noble cavalry, which are respectable heavy cav, but it takes them forever because of all the Warbands they love to recruit, and it's not like any of the alternatives lack heavy cav options. At least the Gauls don't send Gothic Cavalry or Sacred Band Cavalry at you. Anyway, the river crossings do a fine job of warding off Gaul attacks even with heavy cavalry. Much as I hate Warbands and Barbarian Mercenaries, they are useful to stiffen your line against dangerous cavalry.

The disagreement may be an issue with the vanilla balance mod - you do use that one, don't you? I play straight vanilla, warts and all, and the Gauls are mostly harmless in plain vanilla RTW.

[RLucid]

With Carthage, if you take it, it *IS* the big city in almost any empire. I've had Carthage and Patavium producing Triarii quite quickly, although it wasn't a short campaign - I believe I had 15 provinces at the time, and I wasn't dilly-dallying.

So what?? Triarii are not such a big deal, the other spearmen fulfill anti-cavalry role. 15 provinces *is* "later" in my book, you start with 2 plus the walk-over at Segesta 1st turn. Being able to construct in 4 turns an army barracks, and then start producing spear units, in a place where they're not particularly needed anymore, doesn't seem so great to me.

There's a contradiction in claims that the Gauls are "harmless", and any suggestion that you need to set Triarii production as an early goal.

The disagreement may be an issue with the vanilla balance mod - you do use that one, don't you? I play straight vanilla, warts and all, and the Gauls are mostly harmless in plain vanilla RTW.

No, the difference appears to be about interpretation and emphasis put on points. With the Play Balance Mod, the Gauls are tougher opposition, but not by a huge factor (deployment of more swordsmen and skirmishers), the main difference is that they are more resilient, and less likely to be fighting Britannia or Germania. But I've only bothered playing 1 Julii PBM campaign, compared to larger number of Vanilla Julii campaigns on most combinations of difficulty settings (except anything with easy).

In RTW, I don't just fight battles to win, but to have absolutely crushing victories with very few casualties, in order to be able to keep moving onto the next siege to prevent recovery by opponent, once the war has started. Furthermore I attempt to use principal of "Economy of Force" to permit the maximum achievement of goals.

If you do that, then you risk these "Harmless" Gauls getting together a superior force bolstered by mercenaries with a 2nd line of skirmisher warbands, which catch your army at a disadvantage. Also I don't like losing 1/2 a Hastati unit to a "glorious" charge by Gaul family members, re-inforcing their warbands, still less them breaking through into attacking the Archer unit (which ought to be preserved early in game).

Furthermore in my experience, these "Harmless" Gauls put up at least as much resistance (judged by casualties inflicted) as strong but flawed armies from Germania or Macedonia, who are generally rated more highly. Saying the Germans and Macedonians are as easily beatable as the Gauls, does not say that the Gauls are going to stand up to player controlled armies. I don't believe, the AI has fewer family members when you play, nor not that their potential is less than in the historical battle, where a smaller Gaullish army can defeat the Romans in detail. Furthermore if you have experimented with different force levels and army compositions, you will have experienced an army getting over-run by these "Harmless" Gauls. Only if you have not experimented and stuck to "Smackus Maximus", at cost of slower expansion, is it plausible to me that you have not experienced any defeats at hands of these "Harmless" Gauls.

Let's face it the Battle AI is crude. So a faction that requires simply acquiring over-whelming numbers, charge in, and hope for a quick rout, is one that it plays comparatively better, than one which requires subtle deployment of forces.


Let's put one of the original points a slightly different way.

The main problem with the Julii army at start of game, is that it is not balanced. There are far too few anti-cavalry spearmen. Against some opponents greater numbers of light missile infantry will strengthen the force considerably.

One of the early goals to follow "Optimal Strategy", is to rapidly balance this force, and then to re-balance it appropriately to face different opposition later on, without incurring huge upkeep costs.

[Praetor Rick]

You cannot logically maintain both that it's not worthwhile getting Triarii early on and that the Julii suffer from not having spearmen early on.

The Julii don't need spearmen against the Gauls. If they do, the problem solves itself - Gaul is lousy with spearmen mercenaries. If that's not enough, as I've pointed out, Triarii are not actually particularly difficult to get, even within the boundaries of a short campaign.

I do maintain that in a long campaign, going after Gaul is largely a waste of effort. Yeah, they'll attack you. So will whoever else you share a border with. The difference is, the Gauls, while not technically "harmless", are less harmful than just about every other faction in the game. Thus, "mostly harmless." Their settlements are poor and generally small, and they love to pad out their armies with units that are lackluster (at best) against the infantry-heavy Roman armies that they usually face. A Gaul army that's chock full of Barbarian Cavalry, Barbarian Noble Cavalry, and family members would be a scary thing. I never see that army, so I don't bother making plans against it. Eventually, this may cost me a few settlements. Until then, I don't lose any sleep worrying about it, and after then, I imagine that I'll be able to handle the situation with easier-to-get-than-they-seem Triarii and mercenaries.

Prioritize your conquests on what brings you closer to victory. In the short campaign, that's Gaul, and usually I play short. In the long campaign, that's Spain, Macedonia, Carthage, Greece - most of your neighbors except for Gaul, generally. Of the three decent Gaul cities, you're going to snag two in the first few turns of the game, and as often as not, Germania or Britannia snags the third almost as quickly.

[RLucid]

You cannot logically maintain both that it's not worthwhile getting Triarii early on and that the Julii suffer from not having spearmen early on.

Of course I can and I do, and it is your posts that have been logically inconsistent. As stated there are plenty of mercenary spearmen available, whilst recruiting them is not cheap, it is cheaper than building up to army barracks, and trying to meanwhile muddle through with Town Watch (or taking increased losses to Hastati) which would delay conquests.

The Julii don't need spearmen against the Gauls. If they do, the problem solves itself - Gaul is lousy with spearmen mercenaries.

Now you're agreeing with me that you should hire these Mercenaries. A new player, ought to hire them early on, and use them against cavalry. Yet you've obfuscated this so much and appeared to argue the opposite.

I do maintain that in a long campaign, going after Gaul is largely a waste of effort. Yeah, they'll attack you. So will whoever else you share a border with. The difference is, the Gauls, while not technically "harmless", are less harmful than just about every other faction in the game.

Wrong, you're at war with them taking the N. Italian cities, and not trading costs you money. There are other factions you could trade with, but you you apparently attack them instead, which will cut your income.

The most harmless factions, seem to me to be Dacia and Germania, because they conveniently get into a fight with each other, and don't show much aggression in a southerly direction. You knock them back if they wage war, they go much quieter than the Gauls, so much so that you don't even need to maintain an army, just a small border fort and delaying force. Furthermore their armies are very easy to destroy, once you've consolidated the Julii position, and have financial resources to field suitable armies.

This is supposed to be a guide, which will be read by new players, saying the Gauls are "harmless" is misleading, as those players may well find that their battles are not the expected pushovers; because they're getting some of the preparations wrong or something.

Prioritize your conquests on what brings you closer to victory. In the short campaign, that's Gaul, and usually I play short. In the long campaign, that's Spain, Macedonia, Carthage, Greece - most of your neighbors except for Gaul, generally. Of the three decent Gaul cities, you're going to snag two in the first few turns of the game, and as often as not, Germania or Britannia snags the third almost as quickly.

That makes sense, I agree with that; so far I've not seen that all the Triarii quibbling in this thread. It makes sense to not worry about developing Triarii recruitment, but actually take steps to efficiently achieving long term objectives.

That means balancing the army, with an increased anti-cavalry element, to counter any Gallic cavalry you face. It's brain dead to have loads of Hastati fighting with a -4 penalty, taking uncessary losses just because they're the mainstay unit.

Also I did not say don't go after Carthage & Spain, nor automatically advance beyond the Rhone (near Massilia). Most often, I'll get a lucrative ceasefire against Gaul, allowing re-deployment but plan to crush them, once they break the terms.

[Praetor Rick]

I wish I could figure out how to delete my post. Rather, i wish I could figure out how to go back in time and delete it.

Note to self: never post in forums before caffeine.

There may have been a valid point somewhere buried in my post, but I'm having trouble finding it.

I believe I could summarize what I *WANTED* to say as "I consider spearmen in general to be overrated when facing Gaul, but in the event I wanted some, I don't consider Triarii to be especially hard to obtain." That's my whole point - Triarii aren't particularly hard to get. At all.

They're harder than Hastati and Principes, sure, which is actually a flaw in the design of the Roman factions IMHO - all three should be available, reasonably early, and you should be encouraged to use all three by making it impractical to only load up on the one you consider "best" with upkeep and/or build times. Then again, the structure of the Roman armies undergoing a complete change with the Marian reforms makes it a bit problematic to properly balance unit availability pre-Marius. If they're available too early, you can end up with unit producing building upgrades that don't give you anything meaningful, much as the Greeks get to build their last stable upgrade just to get Incendiary Pigs. If they're available too late, they have next to no availability because you hit the reforms right after you get them.

Regardless, I just haven't found Triarii to be especially hard to obtain. Too hard to justify the effort, given what you're getting for it, but Triarii are unimpressive enough that "too hard" doesn't actually quite get up to "hard."

[RLucid]

That's a frustrating thing, only the Prologue starts with a balanced army. I haven't seen any one say it clearly, so it seemed like a guide ought to point that out.

Agreed, it is possible to muddle through, and win, without a good force composition using weight of numbers and having increased casualties; but actually using spies to discover the likely opposition and tailoring the battle forces appropriately is stronger play. Setting the General up later for spotting the flaws in other faction armies.

At the beginning, Gaul has in N. Italy 3 family members which are reasonable heavy cavalry, and if given time they love to build stables and recruit light cavalry additionally (with France area generally producing good mix of skirmishers & infantry to). The problem with using Roman General cavalry alone as the anti-cavalry force, is that the main Gaul infantry early on is Spear-warbands who can do damage to your horse units, and can kill Generals.

The thing is in RTW, everyone is likely to succeed early in the game, expanding at expense of Gaul, Rebels & Carthage (Caralis) simply because the Julii start with a large army with decent infantry, over-strong General Cavalry & Archers. And in general folk have a "if it works don't fix it" attitude. But the situation is likely to be weaker than following better thought out play.

Because my early experiments with Julii likely featured poorer play,
I'm thinking of trying a land only, direct immediate Gaul attack pure short game strategy, to compare the general situation that arises (perhaps even disbanding the fleet to avoid upkeep and temptation).

One of reasons I liked the indirect approach (apart from capturing many small rebel towns early on) is the timing. Generally the Scipii take Lilybaem destroying main Carthage forces yet are slow to recover and take advantage of their victory, giving the Julii the opportunity to take Carthage cheaply around 263BC or so; just when the Gauls like to buy a temporary cease-fire. Having Adriatic also can be a benefit if the Brutii are slow to take Sparta/Corinth.

[RLucid]

Because my early experiments with Julii likely featured poorer play,
I'm thinking of trying a land only, direct immediate Gaul attack pure short game strategy, to compare the general situation that arises (perhaps even disbanding the fleet to avoid upkeep and temptation).

OK, it's Summer, 268 BC; Mediolanum & Patavium captured, with the Gauls paying 5,000 for a ceasefire! But they have a moderately strong stack under Vindix with mercenaries hired from France (that I would have snatched up), who would have been held on Rhone other way, south of Alps, and my main army is now just a blocking force on bridge. There's a rebel stack with Hastati, Equites, Velites, Peasants and a mystery unit, devastating land between Arretium & Arinium; which is reason I counter-offered ceasefire for Gold as I have no reserves to fight it. Both fighting Generals bit the dust, in a pyrhic victory when attacked in light forest outside Mediolanum, which gained Rhodian Slingers from Senate mission.

Barb merc spearmen haven't been available, Samnites & Triarii chewed up, as are the Archers. Had to merge some original units and re-train, probably only 1/4-1/3 original starting army surviving. I think my loss estimates in previous posts, from Gaul Noble (Family) cavalry were about right. The Generals suffered, due to less experience and less opportunity to gain stars before the difficult battles. The army has been much less effective, due to being light on spearmen and missing the strong mercenary skirmishers, with every large battle featuring wooded area.

Financially the situation is very good, and I have nice Senate mission to take Salona, so at least the Brutii won't be taking it, any time soon. Don't know how much effect the poorer diplomatic reputation would have later in game, each faction keeps track using limited info rather than a full global picture.

The frontal assault method, suffers from predictability, you double back on yourself, and are attacking Gaul stacks on ground they choose. Comparing to screenshots with envelopment method, whilst have made more main progress, the loose ends aren't tied. Have made a lot more money than in any previous game, so I'm hoping to solve one problem (a rebel army or town) by bribery, to permit rapid consolidation, and balancing the main army before the Gauls decide to attack. I estimate that getting to Massilia is going to involve several years, advancing against & fighting several different Gaul stacks. Their peace request, is almost certainly a ruse, preliminary to a counter-offensive (the advisor mentions that peaceful overtures tend to precurse an attack).

I think around 265BC, though the Faction will be much richer there's less expansive potential energy. In vanilla with a weaker Gaul faction, I'd probably be in better shape, but perhaps have an additional rebel stack to face in Mediolanum/Patavium area.

Fact is instead of a super well led veteran army, habitually cruising to victory with few casualties, I'm having to rebuild with forces no stronger than those I started with in 270BC.


Second Attempt

Improved battle at Patavium by deploying to take on stack outside city (which actually is bribeable by Sextus for 6,600dn out of the 8,500 I had). About 10% casualties to take town at odds of 5:3. Not facing significant mixed forces, means only 1 Hastati unit suffers from Noble Cavalry charge, and the spearmen have much reduced losses to, as General can intervene on a flank to. The Samnites are OK against Barb Light cavalry.

Then sent Quintus to the ford above Segesta, rather than following main army, which allows him to take out 2 Spear WB & Light Cavalry which move back towards Mediolanum. Then he can move next turn and hire the Barbarian Spear WB's available from the Massilia province before the Gauls hire them. This reduces their forces considerably, and avoids the potentially painful battle at Mediolanum, keeping it to a lightly guarded town.

This I've left with Mediolanum about to be besieged (Infantry don't quite reach from Patavium even with mud track), but N. Italy cut off, with Infantry on the ford point awaiting Vindix's pleasure.

Much happier with the way this plays out, though splitting the forces relies on "knowing" nothing harmful is going to be around to kill off Quintus, and "exploits" the AI's poor handling of ford/bridge battles.

Getting a decent husband for Fadia helps lots to, as he can go hire mercs in Illyria, and go via land to take Segestica & Salona.

[Charlevan]

Town Watch can be useful in battle if:

1) you can slam one enemy with 2-3 of them in a semi-circle

2) you just need a temporary anvil for a minute or so until you bring in the hammer from the flank

Ave Seamus!

Your words, the usefulness of TW is well and true, usefull when used in respect to the ability of these units. We now use 4 units in the center of the battle line, perfect square formation, with 3H on the left- and 3H on the right flank, TW takes the blow, seems the 'ai enemy' cannot resist charging at them and this movemnt often expose the flank of the attacking enemy. Our design is to attack this flank with the general, make them rout and 'roll up the line'.

[RLucid]

Have you tried mixing in Ilyrian Mercs & Velities to provide offensive punch, with the TW acting as a skeleton for them to skirmish about?

Having such groups, with Hastati lining up against the enemy Infantry (thus screened from chariots) worked well against Britannia. It doesn't generally make sense to line up TW against Infantry, because their spears suffer a penalty compared to the bonus against cavalry.

[Quintus.JC]

Your words, the usefulness of TW is well and true, usefull when used in respect to the ability of these units. We now use 4 units in the center of the battle line, perfect square formation, with 3H on the left- and 3H on the right flank, TW takes the blow, seems the 'ai enemy' cannot resist charging at them and this movemnt often expose the flank of the attacking enemy. Our design is to attack this flank with the general, make them rout and 'roll up the line'.

How's your campaign getting on, have you reached the Marian reforms yet?

[Charlevan]

I restarted the Julii campaign, I was far in the game, with not enough to show for it, 10 territories after 40 years . . . OK, not so good,

Further to that I was fighting a never ending battle in Spain and the north Gual territory, with good battle results, but my replacement/retraining supply line was very long and confussing, the towns in that area under my control can could not produce the units . . .

Alora, I started a new campaign, and things got to a very good start, it must be stating the obvious, when I say that success on the battlefield is one key to success in this game, the concept of the battles are great, you have to hit hard, fast and gain HEROIC VICTORY as many time possible, that allow development of cities, i.e. less cost for retraining or re-recruiting, in my first campaign I had mass unit movement for re-training, it was one logistical nightmare! So, military success is imperative . . . the recommended guides helped, but it was also important is to design a battle plan for myself, and I did that, by replaying the same battle many times, training my own skills until I got it right . . .

In this second campaign, I have decided to avoid the Guals, only prevent invasion with one army in the area of Gual entry to my territory, with some interesting results . . .

I sacked in few turns the 'northern italy territories' , then sacked that island to the south, and at turn 16, I sacked Cartage . . . ! But it came without seige, which was little strange, but to my benefit. I landed my army, and in preparation to move to the city I was attacked . . . something like 1000 vs 400, but no warning about elephants . . . ! 6 units of H and wardogs killed all but one, and that one elephant did something strange . . . it ran through its own troops, and most routed after that moment, the battle positions cartwheeled, and the Cartiginians fled to the next province, away from their city . . . which was a stroke of good fortune, the next turn my army was in Cartage . . . I executed the population, for the cash, and went on a shopping spree to develop my cities, maybe wrong, because I stil did not reach the 24000 civ in any city, but anyway Carthage is almot there. Subsequent I sacked the territory south of Carthage and got a elephant unit from the senate . . . they are great . . . the Guals love them . . .

In defence against Gual, my northern army stayed in that 'valley between the mountains' and achieved good battle results, the more the better, enough Heroic victories to write long stories, but I'll keep it short . . .

I set my formationas follows:

H H H TwTwTwTw H H H
G V V

the main plan is to get my left flank H in a forward position,

(E E E)
H H H
G (GE E E E)
TwTwTwTw H H H
V V

so tha my G can smack into the flank of the Enemy units (E) attacking the Tw, rout them, and then work to the right flank, the enemy often routs by the time the G hits the next enemy unit. Even the enemy General (GE) dont stand their ground, I target them with the V, and they lose 3 or 4 with my first G charge,I imediatly withdraw, and re-charge. Lately I also use RA, and they are lethal, specialy with 'fire-power'.

In the campaign, I have besieged the Gual town Mediolodium, just accross the bridge, now the Guals are trying to relieve their town, and they send large armies at me, accross that bridge, now soaked with the blood of thousands . . . but something strange happens here; I get attacked from front and back, the back force is no concern, they are far away and small in number, so my first attention is the enemy crossing the bridge. I allow them to cross, and move toward me, I draw them to my center, then charge them hard from the sides, like a pincer, and every time they rout, even before their G can reach the other side of the bridge, first one unit routs, then two, then all, even the General, but then the strange part happens; the stupid Guals do not try to go back where they came from (the north part of the bridge), they try to escape along the south bank of the river, so it becomes one mass murder without a chase, they run into their own death (I've even had troule sleeping lately because of this carnage . . . ) The enemy comming from the twon, is then swftly dealt with, but I dont chase them down, I allow them to escape . . . you see, I never take the town, every time I withdraw the seige, to allow the enemy re-inforcement, just to replay that bridge battle again every year. This absorbs so many Gual units, that they only attack me in this area, which is exactly what I want; it keeps the Guals out of my other teritories, so that I can focus on the Greeks and other things. It also has trained my General who has something like 8 stars now . . . OK, so one latest development on this famous bridge site is those elephants I got from the Senate . . . I send them in from the onset, and they just push the Guals of the bridge, and many just land in the water, really nice gift thanks . . .

My next aim is to get a better position to the east, I am building one 'perfect army' to launch an asault on Egypt . . . or any other Large City, this time to enslave them . . .

[RLucid]

I draw them to my center, then charge them hard from the sides, like a pincer, and every time they rout, even before their G can reach the other side of the bridge, first one unit routs, then two, then all, even the General, but then the strange part happens; the stupid Guals do not try to go back where they came from (the north part of the bridge), they try to escape along the south bank of the river, so it becomes one mass murder without a chase, they run into their own death (I've even had troule sleeping lately because of this carnage . . . )

This is a reported bug for bridge battles, that routers run to the side they attempted to cross to making them easy to completely annhiliate. In my bridge battles when outnumbered, fought close to crossing point with missile units firing into the mob, they generally do turn back the way they came.

play that bridge battle again every year. This absorbs so many Gual units, that they only attack me in this area, which is exactly what I want; it keeps the Guals out of my other teritories,

The same is achievable on the Rhone crossing, just NW of Massilia further to east, I included earlier some screenshots of an Massilia immediate capture game; sealing off N. Italy from the main Gaullish lands. I have some spearmen to stop and hold, any charging cavalry. Hastati to take on the Infantry and increase lethality of the missile killing zone with their javelins. Cavalry given room to charge in after a while and chase the routing army down back on "their" side of river.

[Charlevan]

Quickly took the two Gaul settlements in N. Italy and then built 3 forts along the mountains to block the Gauls from coming in. I really thought I would have to fight to sustain these forts but they have never been attacked. I think that might be a bug. Why would they attack settlements with 100s of men and not a fort with a small garrison?

How do you build a fort along the mountain?

[Charlevan]

- Build Watchtowers to in between your cities to monitor AI enemy movement

OK, please how do you build Watchtowers . . . ? I have seen some them on the Campaign map, but how did they arrive?

[RLucid]

That's easy! You may like to try the Prologue, and rehear the Advisor info to pick up more basics.

Move Family member outside of a city. Look at Build icon (above mercenary recruitment), click and see if watchtower/forts are available. Watchtowers benefit from being on hills. Forts with a basic garrison, see less far but help suppress rebel brigands. If the terrain is not suitable for either the Build icon is pale.

[Quintus.JC]

How do you build a fort along the mountain?

Just like RLucid said, but I'd like to add that forts are NOT permanet structure. It is only a termpory walled garrison which are used best to hold strategic positions such as mountain choke points or river crossing. If no units is in the fort for more than one turn the fort itself will disappear from the campaign map.

[Quintus.JC]

.........My next aim is to get a better position to the east, I am building one 'perfect army' to launch an asault on Egypt . . . or any other Large City, this time to enslave them . . .

Glad to know you're doing well. Assulting Egypt would probably not be the best option since they're almost always the super-power in the East. But this doesn't mean they're unbeatable. Still 10 territory in 40 years isn't bad, the game ends in 14 A.D so you had plenty of time to finish your first campaign. You should wait till the Marian reforms, you'll be invinceble by then.

[Charlevan]

Yes, maybee attacking Egypt can wait for a while, but anyway, my idea is to get a foothold in every corner of the map as soon as possible, so that I can develop those places into "model military cities". These 'model cities' must produce their own military untis for defence and further expansion in that area, so that I will have a sort of de-centralised city system with mini cental systems in stead.

To expand from one central system, means you have to attach your neighbours, I want to attack only non-neighbours . . . (for the moment), allowing my main center to grow in relative peace . . . the main center will of course supply the initial armies to land. Later, I intend to expand my main center, in wars with neigbours to west (Guals) north (German)and east (Dacia), ok I am alreay at war with the Guals, but I am only defending my northwest border with one army . . .

Alora, I intend to invade Briton, Spain, the Palestine area (not sure who is the occupant now) the are russian area (?) by landing the armies 'trained in italy' in those far away places, they have to conquer or be killed, no return tickets, no reinforcements (it takes to much 'organisation on the map'), so the ships leave immediatly, with no intention to come back . . . (the men have to find their live with the local women . . . I am also an expatriate, I fully understand the hardships to be out off my country of birth!)

That is my global strategy, if it works or not, remain to be seen, anyway I will prepare a list of which place I took and when . . .

The same idea of 'secondary center' is working very well in North Afrca, Carthage and Thapsus are completly independent 'in military sense' from the 'primary center' and are building armies to move to west african territories.

[Charlevan]

OK, it seems usefull to keep forts on the northern borders and in center part of some provinces. One thing that I am not sure about; How much space around an army (or fort) becomes an obstruction for the enemy armies? Sometime it seems they move around my army, in a place which I thought was a 'choking point', I can see the obstruction of my enemy (in a brown colour on the map), but not the obstruction that my own army covers . . .

[RLucid]

These 'model cities' must produce their own military untis for defence and further expansion in that area, so that I will have a sort of de-centralised city system with mini cental systems in stead.

To expand from one central system, means you have to attach your neighbours, I want to attack only non-neighbours . . . (for the moment), allowing my main center to grow in relative peace . . . the main center will of course supply the initial armies to land.

That's probably quite a difficult strategy to pull off successfully. You may divide your forces in such a way that they are not mutually self supporting. Sea trade may be lessened because you're at war, rather than trading with the most lucrative, but more distant maritime factions.

Trade in your main area is less lucrative and less reliable; because they're not governed by your faction.

Furthermore some of your neighbours are likely to attack you anyway.

The main danger with the Julii is dissipating strength, on too many excursions without immediate coherent expansion prospects; meaning army size to settlement ratio is lowered, causing financial stagnation. Economic consolidation results in weakening forces which stimulate the AI factions to attack in a fairly coordinated manner, in inconvenient border locations "smelling" weakness. That results in too many military commitments, spread out over too great an area.

ie. STRATEGIC OVERSTRETCH!

OTOH the classic Julii strategy, of N. Italy, Carthage, and then the Med. bordering lands like Spain and S. Gaul, does concentrate the fleet on the W. Med and permit strategic movement between the fronts. The natural divisions and early struggle between Britannia & Germania, reduces the conflict intensity in Gaul, once the back is broken of the Gallic faction (taking Narbo & Alesia).

In general sufficient peace, can be established by avoiding pushing north to Luvavum, merely allowing Dacia & Germania to struggle over Losice & Luvavum.

[Charlevan]

ok, so trade will be ruined . . . but I want to fight all the factions, and sack the largest cities, enslave or execute, train a few units, then move to the next city in that area . . . with the same army, depleated outnumbered and against the odds, small armies can defeat larger ones, and they will fight until they are no more

i still consider this campaign as a learning curve, i've read many posts where 'beter armies than Guals' were not expected. Now I can defeat any Gual army, with the same strategy . . . so its time to move on . . . and face other factions and learn more the map by the travels . . .

I also discouvered that the only way out of economic stagnation is to fight . . . when you lose men, you pay less for those units . . .

[Quintus.JC]

OK, it seems usefull to keep forts on the northern borders and in center part of some provinces. One thing that I am not sure about; How much space around an army (or fort) becomes an obstruction for the enemy armies? Sometime it seems they move around my army, in a place which I thought was a 'choking point', I can see the obstruction of my enemy (in a brown colour on the map), but not the obstruction that my own army covers . . .

It is possible as the Julii to seal of all routes into Northern Italy from the rest of Europe with a series of Forts. Northern Italy is surrounded by the Alps and by blocking the gaps with forts will sure to slow down any enemy from marching right into your heartlands.

I'm not sure about the attacking your non-neighbour thing. For me only the rich area is worth conquering. Which is mostly around the Medd. sea. Russia is undoubtly one of the poorest area in the game, even in Roman hands it would still fail to produce the goods. Palenstine is fabulously rich, but very difficult to hold without suffient armies. At that stage Palenstine is normally held by Egypt, who are master of the East. Also capturing a faraway city such as Jerusalme will give you tons of culture penalty and the distance from Capital penalty is astounding. I think it is in your best interest to only focus around Western Europe, Northern Africa and Balkans. Gallic lands is less lucrative than the rest but your Roman Allies might not be too pleased to know that you have taken their sphere of interest. (i.e. Taking Carthage, that's Scipii' backyard, and Greece is naturally Brutii' property.)