Roman: Julii

[Ariplatostophanes]

Hey, my first post on the Org! Cool. I'm here b/c I'm playing Julii though my questions are pretty general. Here's the backround:

Julii M/M (Hey, its' my first time thru though I must admit the AI is not very aggressive). 246 BC, 14 regions, 27 wins 4 loses (all naval to Carthage but they're not a problem anymore )

Began in usual Julii faction by taking Pata, Medio, and Segesta. Then Caralis. As the Gauls weren't pressing me, I moved on Carthage. I was able to do this by following a diplomatic trick noted on this forum and bribing the captained Senate army on turn two for 2500D. Well worth it, even on turn two. Carthage severely dented two units of Hastati but I won in the end. Also moved down and took Thapsus. Carthage lost their other provinces to Spain and Scipii respectively and I finished them off on Palma. Bye bye Carthage.

I then pushed on into Gaul after taking the two rebel towns north of Pata. I plan to continue on into Spain and take the peninsula. I am allied with the Brits so I don't anticipate war on that front soon. They are warring with Germany who I have only a trade agreement with. Numidia is also neutral so they aren't bothering with my north African towns. I am hoping that after I defeat Spain (currently at war with Numidia), I will be able to turn the Numidians toward Egypt. I don't anticipate trouble from them on the battlefield but I don't really want to have to hike thru all of north Africa to chase them down. Alpine passes are well fortified.

My other plan is to take the remaining Greek towns. The Scipii have done alright for themselves in Sicily and Italy but they have no other regions. The Brutii likewise have their starting two and two across the Adriatic. I allied with Macedonia early and they have most of the rest of Greece/Maced. The Greeks are left with the Pelop, which is where I plan to proceed. I am confident with my current financial situation and allies that i will be able to wage a two front war in Spain and Greece. Which leads to my questions...

1. If I take the remaining Greek cities, I will have essentially boxed in the Brutii and I am concerned that they will turn on Macedonia (the two are allied now). I just recently found Tamur's diplomacy guide so I will offer them a few gifts to keep them going. Macedonia borders me near Pata. Of note, Germany and Dacia just allied, with Germany on my border and Dacia on Maced's. I have a gut feeling that my Maced alliance may last and may benefit both of us greatly if it does. Will it all fall apart if the Brutii declare war on them? Will they not trust me anymore? Will the Senate get mad if I maintain and even encourage the alliance? Should I just dump it if the Brutii attack them?

2. I have an itching to take Sicily from the Scipii. Can I accomplish this using spies and assassins? Will they have the same effect in an ally's city as they do in an enemy's? The plan is to swoop in after the towns rebel and take them for my own, taking advantage of the fact that we all have military rights and I will be able to park my army right outside the city.

3. Simple question: ladders vs siege towers? I used towers during the Carthage siege. It seemed to take forever for my unit to make it to the top. Are ladders faster? I'm assuming they are but offer less protection against missiles. Dummy me, I didn't infiltrate so I didn't know that Carthage wasn't fielding archers.

Thanks to everyone who has posted on the forums. You all have helped me in one way or another during my first campaign. The only advice I can give to other new players is to read ALL the forums. You may be playing as Julii but you will find something on the Egyptian forum for instance that just might save your life.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

1. If they attack, you probably shouldn't keep the alliance -- unless you want the civil war immediately. You can capture rebel cities and sell them to the Macs or buy maps from them at exorbitant prices to prop them up without an alliance.

2. Spies and Assassins can break up the towns and engender rebellion, and then take the rebellious towns, but if you are caught it's civil war immediately.

3. I've heard folks call for both. Start the Siege towers forward and as they draw the fire send your ladders in elsewhere to swarm the walls and sweep them clear. Apparently this takes a bit of timing.

Seamus

[GreatEmperor]

Simple question: ladders vs siege towers?

Dont use both of them, use tunnels! The only problem of tunnels are that you can't place them but with a bit of luck they stand in good positions.

[Garvanko]

Ladders or seige towers?

Neither..

Send a spy in, and hope he can open the gates.. Then seige, and wait for them to sally.

[Craterus]

I'm finding the prologue surprisingly fun...

I've been told I have the support to take Rome, so this should be fun...

[GreatEmperor]

Ladders or seige towers?

Neither..

Send a spy in, and hope he can open the gates.. Then seige, and wait for them to sally.

Don't do that, if the enemy has got a phalanx unit they will put it in front of the gate. If you destruct to walls by tunnels or catapults or something like that, you got 2 or more ways you can enter and in that way you can flank them.

[Garvanko]

Yes. But I try to do that when I have two huge armies. One with Onagers (at least 4), the other using sap points. Best let the AI control the second one. The walls crumble like its dominoes.

Do this in Italy and especially against Rome. Its epic, believe me.

[Ariplatostophanes]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my earlier questions. I will be testing the siege strategies (ladders vs towers vs saps) against the Greek cities. First an update, then some questions:

Spain helped me out by bribing the last Gaul settlement and ending the faction. Fortunately, I was less than a turn away. It rebelled and I was able to take it before they did. It is the region right in the middle of Spain, which will come into play in my question. I stayed there a turn or two to regroup and establish a garrison before furthering my plan to attack Spain and take all the peninsula. Then - Germany attacks me, in Gaul, where I am weak. Ahh the best laid plans... I was only able to post a close victory by outrunning them. It is a fun little story: One of my kids acquired the nickname Decius the Mad due to his being a "hypochondriac" and "dangerously mad". As all his traits are essentially in the negative, I was using him to tour the empire and build forts and watchtowers where appropriate. He just happened to be nearby as I noticed the Germans crossing the border. I expired his movement by moving him to the outskirts of Alesia. Fortunately they attacked him (instead of the town) and the weak garrison were reinforcements. The garrison got trounced but he was able to run around for twenty minutes to secure the victory (COWARD!!). They didn't attack again that turn and he was able to buy some mercs before heading into town.

Needless to say, my two armies in Spain pulled out to head for the German border. I landed three armies in Greece and have simultaneously laid siege to Sparta, Corinth, and Athens. I am going to attack rather than wait it out, as they have small garrisons and I need the money. It'll be a fun turn tonight - probably take an hour or more!

So my newest questions:

1. After I took the rebel settlement in Spain, Numidia offered alliance and I took it. It seemed like a good thing as they surround me in N Africa and have a border with Egypt. They are at war with Spain and I'm assuming they saw me take the rebel region in the middle. I'd like to strengthen the alliance as I'd like to steer them towards Egypt and away from me in Carthage. The region isn't worth much to me so I'm thinking of gifting it to them. Obviously they will lose it to rebels and then to Spain before they can garrison it. Will I lose any diplomatic ground if I gift it to them knowing full well that they will lose it anyway? Or is it not my problem after I gift it and I get the benefits of doing a nice thing for my ally? I can't afford to leave a gov or a dip there so there is a good chance it would be bribed away by Spain anyway. Any thoughts?

2. No one - even far away civs like Scythia and Pontus - will buy my map info. If I leave negotiations open or offer to trade map for map they respond that they have nothing to offer. Any ideas?

[Garvanko]

No one - even far away civs like Scythia and Pontus - will buy my map info. If I leave negotiations open or offer to trade map for map they respond that they have nothing to offer. Any ideas?

You'll have to buy map... likelihood of trading map decreases the more you get into the game. Most are unlikely to buy yours, though.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

1. After I took the rebel settlement in Spain, Numidia offered alliance and I took it. It seemed like a good thing as they surround me in N Africa and have a border with Egypt. They are at war with Spain and I'm assuming they saw me take the rebel region in the middle. I'd like to strengthen the alliance as I'd like to steer them towards Egypt and away from me in Carthage. The region isn't worth much to me so I'm thinking of gifting it to them. Obviously they will lose it to rebels and then to Spain before they can garrison it. Will I lose any diplomatic ground if I gift it to them knowing full well that they will lose it anyway? Or is it not my problem after I gift it and I get the benefits of doing a nice thing for my ally? I can't afford to leave a gov or a dip there so there is a good chance it would be bribed away by Spain anyway. Any thoughts?

If its in rebel status, send a force to take Cyrene and give that to the numis. Anything that focuses them on the East is good.

As to rebel spain, you can sell it/give it to Numid, but then you're just aiding the Spaniards a few turns later. Might want to give it to an Egyptian opponent -- maybe they'll ally with Spain and get your Numis into it. Or you can sell off the good buildings and purposefully under-garrison it. Spain will take it but you can bleed them a bit and so on.

Seamus

[Ariplatostophanes]

Thanks for the explanation Garvanko. Note to self - sell maps early. I didn't get that dip over there until just recently so I'm a fair way into the game at this point.
And Seamus. Yes Cyrene is still rebel. I tried to bribe it about 10 turns ago but I don't think I had enough D at the time 'cause they couldn't be bought!! So my dip moved on to get trade rights from Egypt. Unfortunately, I can't really spare an army to take it right now, what with war against Greece and Germany. I may be able to field something small from Carthage and Thapsus (sp?) but I'll have to build as I can't afford to pull away the garrisons.

The only enemy of Egypt right now are the Seluecids (I think), but won't they be in the same boat as the Numids if I give or sell to them? I also don't want the Numids to go after Egypt just yet as I fear war with both Spain and Egypt will annihilate them. AND THAT JUST LEAVES ME
I think I will try to hold it with a reasonable garrison. I'll try to build a dip and ship him from Italy so he'll get there a litle sooner than walking. At least that will raise the bribe price. I'll also look into demolishing any buildings that I can. I'll at least get rid of the roads that I built when I first arrived so they can't use those.

[YAKOBU]

Hi Ariplatostophanes

Unfortunately roads are one of the few things you cannot demolish for cash, along with farms and governor class buildings.

[Ariplatostophanes]

Thanks Yakobu. I'd never tried so I didn't know but now I do.

I've decided to hold it. I spent a few turns recruiting peasants then sent my general to build some forts at the passes. We'll see. The worst that could happen is Spain attacks me instead of me attacking them, which is just fine. It turns out the German threat isn't as strong as prev thought. I think I will use a combo of bribing and attacking to take out some armies there and maybe a town, then I'll ceasefire and return to Spain. I'll give my new German region, when captured, to my ally Britain to act as a larger buffer.

War in Greece was a humble experience. I got whooped on the walls of Sparta. It was the first time I ever reloaded after a battle. I won, but at the cost of a general and 3/4 of a full army. I've since gone back to sieging it. Battles for Corinth and Athens went better but they had smaller garrisons there. For some reason, while the Greek navy is large, they are almost all single ships and they don't seem to be coming together. With all the other Romans in the area, I have help on almost every naval battle.

[GreatEmperor]

I've got a question too...
Can Rome rebel if you set fire to their buildings with that special unit?

[Lord Winter]

What i did on my campain on VH/VH
Went north taking all the gauls coastal settelment. Spain then backstabed me so i had to distroy them whille fighting off full stacks of guals. After spain was distroyed I finished off the guals. I am now ready to invade germany.
I found that a usful strartagy for geting senete offics is to kill off other romen family members with assins.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What i did on my campain on VH/VH
Went north taking all the gauls coastal settelment. Spain then backstabed me so i had to distroy them whille fighting off full stacks of guals. After spain was distroyed I finished off the guals. I am now ready to invade germany.
I found that a usful strartagy for geting senete offics is to kill off other romen family members with assins.

So you rather enjoy the challenge of an unplanned for/impromptu start to the civil war?

Or have you modded your assassins to a base 140% effectiveness level?

Seamus

[GreatEmperor]

Can someone please answer my question:
Can Rome rebel if you set fire to their building with an Assassin?

[Craterus]

Never seen it happen.. I doubt it would. You have to beat the Senate in battle, they can't be beaten otherwise...

[GreatEmperor]

Ok, thanks But I find it's very good to sabotage the forum because it drops the population increase (to -0,5 in my case), so the Senate can't get to their highest tech level. They can't recruit the best soldiers now while I can.

[Craterus]

Good point, but the Senate are very rich and will buld another forum quite quickly. Sabotage is great for training up assasins.

[GreatEmperor]

Hmm... are you sure? In my game (Julii 198 B.C. H/N) I've been sabotaging the Senate for ages but still they aren't getting experience. So if I want to train them I'll let them kill Rebels.

[GreatEmperor]

Are you sure? Because in my game (Julii H/N 198 B.C.) I've been sabotaging the Senate for ages but still they won't get experience. If I wanna train my Assassins I'll let them kill off some rebel.

[GreatEmperor]

Are you sure? I find it better to train them on Rebels, because in my game I'm sabotaging the Senate for ages and still none of them has gotten much experience.

[Ariplatostophanes]

So, war in Germany has gone well. I had been distracted there (I was planning to move into Spain). Germany has settled down after I've taken 4 regions and are sending fewer and smaller armies. I have a Senate mission to take a fifth but I don't think I will follow thru. It's 232 BC and my Senate standing is still pretty good. It is only for a "minor exotic unit" that will appear in my capital, miles away from any front line. I'm going to siege the German town, then force a ceasefire. I plan to offer two of the conquered regions to my ally Britain, giving me a nice buffer between a now neutral (yet probably hostile) Germany and Julii red Gaul. Then I'll pull those two armies south and head back towards Spain.

Meanwhile in Greece, I apparently defeated the last Greek family member when he sallied out of Sparta. After his defeat, their 4 remaining regions went rebel and I got the faction eliminated message. Unfortunately, I wasn't quick enough and Thrace took Larissa before I could get there. Now I'm sieging the city in the SW (the one just south of Appolonia). The army that took Rhodes is now sieging the rebel province in the SW of Turkey (The one with the wonder. Sorry, no map here to recall the names). Then he'll move north by sea to take the other rebel region across from Byzantium (which is owned by Thrace).

Now to my latest question: my next logical expansion is north from Greece into Thrace. If I do this, it won't leave much for the Brutii. Neither of my Roman brothers have distinguished themselves so far. The Brutii, contrary to what I've seen in other posts, have big stacks all over their Italian regions and very little across the Aegean. It wasn't like I charged into Greece early on. I gave them a good 25 years to do something there before I moved in. I need some suggestions for getting the Brutii out of Italy in the near future without having to give up conquesting the Thracian towns. I've been putting off building my final level palaces so I can get good use out of my standing armies, particularly against Spain. But squalor and pop is building up quick in Patavium and Carthage. Once I swoop thru Spain I will be dangerously close to the magic Civil War number. Help me get the Brutii out of Italy

[GreatEmperor]

If you've got 30 provinces, the civil war won't be declared immediatly. I've got 41 provinces now and still my standing with the senate is very good, no signs of the civil war starting has been given (except for the message that you can attack Rome now). At first, Brutii and Scipii had a lot of armies swarming through Italy, but now they've been gone. Just wait long enough 'till they are gone or get 49 provinces and attack Rome then.

[GreatEmperor]

If you've got 30 provinces the Civil war won't start immediatly. In my game i've got 41 provinces now and still no sign of the Civil War has reached me (except for the message that I can attack Rome now). My standing with the Senate is high, there was a time when there were full stacks of Brutii and Scipii everywhere in Italy, but after a while they dissapeared. You've actually got 3 choices:
1. Wait for them to leave Italy and then attack their homelands.
2. Bribe them all away.
3. Get 50 provinces and then attack Rome.

[Ariplatostophanes]

And another question: Last night I got the "People are sick of the old men and ready for you" message. Any thoughts on this. I am pre-Marius at the moment but I'm playing 1.0 and just started building the final palace tech level in Patavium, so my understanding is the reforms will occur when that is complete in six turns. I am at 24 provinces after giving two to my British ally so Civil War hasn't begun. Should I wait or should I storm Rome now? What conditions would make a difference?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

At least two schools of thought on this.

1) With only 24 provinces, you should delay civil war while building yourself up to the point where smashing Italy gives you the win. Your opponents will build up, but your overall econ base should be bigger and stronger.

2) If the Brutes and Skips aren't built up too much then blitz the whole place. This should leave you with 35-40 provinces and a relatively simple war against the Germans or Dacian/Thracians for the win. This is riskier, however, if the Senate cripples your field armies (win or lose) and sets up a good Brute/Skip counter.

Seamus

[Garvanko]

Wait six turns for the reforms. Build up your army. Wait to be outlawed.

[Sand]

Id say go for it. You dont get any benefits from taking Rome (other than a nice city obviously) but why wait? Once you get the Marian reforms your army will be obsolete ( wont be able to retrain Hastatii etc) so use them up taking Rome/Italy over the next 6 turns and then replenish your legions with the brand shiny new Marian troop types. Also it increases the challenge of fighting and defeating the Senate army, which should be a highpoint of the game rather than overkill.

And for your first question, I wouldnt encourage the Bruttii to get out of Italy. Easier to beat them when they only have two cities. The AI can break down when you leapfrog their objectives. I took Libyeuam and Syracuse as Julii, before the Scipii did. They sat in their cities for the rest of the game, most likely because holding Libyeum was a condition for invading North Africa.