Roman: Julii

[Ariplatostophanes]

Aye, thank you one and all for some great replies.
Sand, you're definately and emphatically partially right (just prodding you friend ) on the second point. I stole Carthage and Thapsus from right under the Scipii's noses in about turn 5-6. Carthage was particularly a tough fight but I held on. That left them Sicily, which they took pretty early from Carthage and Greece. Since then they've just been sitting around, inhaling lava fumes. But the Brutii, I just don't know. They had years to march thru Greece and Thrace but never did. So they have their starting two and Appolonia. I may have created a problem for them early on by allying with Macedonia. The Macs have somehow held on. Last night, after a turn, Cyrene in N Africa turns Mac orange and black. It was like yeah, go little Mac go. They had been down to just one region along the Aegean coast for years.

I'm also realizing that I currently don't have a requisite army to take Rome anywhere nearby. I would either have to build one, which seems silly being now 4 turns away from the reforms. Or I need to ship one over, which screws up my other bigger plans. I think I will ride it out for awhile as Garvanko and Seamus suggest. It's only 229BC so there's lots of time.

How about encouraging the other Romans to attack Egypt? It would give them something to do and something to spend their money on. I only have one small border with Egypt in Asia Minor so I'm not too worried about invasion in my own lands. Egypt is already at war with Numidia, Seulucids, and Parth I think. To be frank, they are tho only faction I have any fear on these days.

[GreatEmperor]

That might be a good idea however, there's only a small chance that they will accept it. You should always try though. If you can get the other Roman Factions to fight the Egyptians that would really be great for you because you've got the time to concentrate on your bigger plan and eventually make a big army so you can take Rome.



BTW Sorry for all the double posts but something went wrong on my computer.

[Ariplatostophanes]

So who can advise me on this one? I want to end the war with Germany so I can properly wage war on Spain. By the time Spain is done it will probably be Civil War time so I don't want any distractions then either. I want to end war with Germany so that Britain can continue fighting them and I won't have to deal with either one for awhile.

After taking now 5 succesive towns from them, my first attempt was: Ceasefire and you pay tribute 5 turns/ 2000D. Turned down as "We have nothing to offer in return." I figured, ok, I asked too much.

Second attempt was Ceasefire and pay lump payment of 1000D. Turned down, same reason.

The final attempt was simple Ceasefire with nothing in return. Turned down again as "We have nothing to offer in return."

What does that mean? Are they simply not interested? My final alternative is going to be an Accept or we will attack Ceasefire, but that would mean I have to move a good army even deeper into Germany. I think they have only 2 regions left now but I can't be sure as I can't see the extreme northeast of the world map. This has been a very easy and rather boring war for a well-rounded Roman army and I really don't want to have to move on Britain and have to deal with transporting, etc. I've actually been gifting Britain regions to keep them afloat for just this reason. Any ideas or alternatives?

[Ariplatostophanes]

Me again with two more questions:

1. How come I only think of these questions when I'm at working and getting paid by someone else to do something else? Is this game consuming me after only a week or so of playing?

2. I noticed around Carthage there are little camels around. The cursor says I can recruit camel mercs here but I haven't seen any yet. I have a old and rather spiteful governor sitting in Carthage. If he sits outside near the camels long enough, will he eventually be able to recruit some or are they only for the Carthage faction? Frankly, I don't know if I'd have much use for them as all of my fighting has been on the European continent so far. Mostly I'm just curious.
Thanks.

[Deus ret.]

1. How come I only think of these questions when I'm at working and getting paid by someone else to do something else? Is this game consuming me after only a week or so of playing?

Because having to work usually is not one of the things designed to keep you mentally entangled in it, not to speak of interested....don't worry, others share the same fate.

2. I noticed around Carthage there are little camels around. The cursor says I can recruit camel mercs here but I haven't seen any yet. I have a old and rather spiteful governor sitting in Carthage. If he sits outside near the camels long enough, will he eventually be able to recruit some or are they only for the Carthage faction?

Nope. One of the game files deals with the chances of appearing of mercenaries. Some are quite common and easily replenished (e.g. Eastern Mercs in vanilla) while others may virtually take centuries to show up (like elephant mercs).
If I remember correctly, though, camels were among the more common mercenary types around, at least in the Egyptian/Palestinian area in vanilla.

[Sand]

So who can advise me on this one? I want to end the war with Germany so I can properly wage war on Spain. By the time Spain is done it will probably be Civil War time so I don't want any distractions then either. I want to end war with Germany so that Britain can continue fighting them and I won't have to deal with either one for awhile.

Best of luck tbh - in my experience diplomacy is effectively pointless. Enemies rarely agree to make peace, rarely stick to alliances, rarely trade world maps after the first few turns, even more rarely accept protectorate status and so on and so forth. Apparently there are means to force them to agree, if youre blockading all their ports, have 12 full stack armies seiging their last city, and their down to a 1 unit peasant army - but if youve gone to all that bother why call the whole thing off with a peace deal?

Diplomats are only good for bribery (less so these days), selling maps for cash(less so these days), protecting your armies/cities from bribery and getting trade rights early on - before the AI begins its aeons of unending war with you.

My advice to you in this case would be to hold on Spain for a tad, use the army you have in Germania to take the last two cities, exterminate them - The screams will help relieve the frustration of having to waste time in Germania, believe me - and give them to the British as gifts. It probably wont stop the British stabbing you in the back, but we can dream. Anyway, Londinium and Sambrovia run very profitable trade routes between each other so it might be worth the investment of time in that particular case.

The other option is to offer the Germans peace, all the regions you took, 400,000 dennarii and your first born children as sacrifices to their dark gods and perhaps then they might agree to make peace with you. Maybe. If the stars align and the anceint prophecies are fufilled.

Yes Im bitter about the insane AI demands for peace. Its like theyve all got William Wallace on retainer as a consultant negotiator, with his demands for the enemy to kiss their own arse as part of the peace deal.

[gardibolt]

Yeah, there's virtually no way to get a ceasefire diplomatically. Your only real hope of ending the war is extermination of the faction. I'd wipe out the Spanish to secure the Iberian peninsula and then concentrate on the Germans. That way you can shift excess troops from Spain to Germany and then down to your starting cities (or directly to your starting cities if you're doing OK in Germany); the other way round is awkward and you end up moving spare troops away from Rome where you know you're going to need them.

One extremely costly alternative would be to gift all regions that border on Germany to the Britons, and hope they actually come take them before the Germans get there, but that really is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[GreatEmperor]

And if you can't see the northeastern part of the worldmap try to buy map information from the Scythians or maybe the Germans.

[Emperor Aurelius]

I am playing my own julii campaign.I have taken all of gaul,britain,spain(with the exception of corduba which is still held by the carthaginians who actually STILL HAVE THE BEST ECONOMY IN THE GAME!),ireland,germany(well the brutii hold the southern part of germany,denmark,parts of russia,parts of northern Italy,and sardinia.

Right now im fighting against carthage.Carthage only owns palma and corduba but they have the strongest economy in the game!They have sacred band infantry.3 attempts to capture corduba have failed and my expedition force sent to capture palma is now trapped outside the city of palma after temperorarily gaining control of the city being forced out by rebels.The city was retaken by a carthaginian army.

This may sound surprising that carthage is still a power after losing all of Afirca.Even though the scipii still control most of Africa carthage is actually still wreaking havoc on them!A carthaginian army landed on north africa not too long ago.They defeated 2 scipii armies and cost the scipii like 1,500 casualties!

The carthaginians may only hold 2 provinces but they are as dangerous as ever.I tried allying with them thinking that in case of civil war with rome they may prove to be a useful ally.They allied with me but betrayed me shortly after.They actually launched a full scale invasion of the 5 provinces in spain that I control.They even came close to capturing carthago nova itself!So right now I have decided that carthage must go.Im making every effort I can to take them down.


There are no more enemies in the north except scythia to deal with.So im thinking of taking down carthage.Then bribing some scipii cities in Africa to defect to me.I did it several times to them and boy was the senate angry.They ordered me to give back all cities stole.I refused of course.


Brutii power is strong as ever.They control most of russia and are allied with macedon which is VERY strong in the game im playing.They control nearly the whoel balkans!Brutii are now attacking the crimea and are fighting a drawn out war against scythia.Despite heavy losses the brutii just took one of the scythians main provinces and it will not be long before scythia too is extinct.
So macedon adn brutii are hte 2 big boys east of the Italian penninsula in Europe and Russia that is.

Scipii are considered a joke now.The own an empire that has part of Italy,all of Sicily,all of north Africa except the Saharra,and parts of Egypt.Problem?Why are they considered a joke?Because they cannot compltley take control of Egypt.Egypt controls a vast empire and the 3 egyptian territories are constantly in revolt and the Egyptian army keeps send more and more soldiers in from Jerusaleam and Sidonand other areas.This is a problem for hte scipii who at the same time have to deal with frequent revolts in Africa.So if I bribed some African cities it would only be too easy.

[Ariplatostophanes]

Thanks for all the responses.

Sand and Gardibolt: You're right. Germania won't accept ceasefire. I surrounded them down to one province, then gave all the conquered regions to the Brits. It will hopefully keep my alliance with the Brits strong and now there is a British border between the sole German region and me. It was hard giving up provinces but it has bought me time to raise armies in Italy to get ready for pending Civil War. The Brits lost one b/c I gave it to them before they could garrison it. I had to retake it. It held on the second time I think b/c I exterminated again. Then gifted and they were able to hold it.

Great Emporer: Instead of spending money on maps that I could use to bribe away other Roman armies, I've sent a rather worthless dip to just wander the Northeast. Cheaper and accomplished the same thing, just slower.

Emporer Aurelius: Glad to see someone else is playing with me. I love that your game is much different than mine. The Macs are barely holding on with two provinces and one of them is in N Africa LOL. The three powers are Egypt (of course), Thrace, and me. The last turn, all the other Romans declared war on Thrace. I haven't yet and am ignoring the Senate mission to block Byzantium and be forced into war. I'm hoping the other Romans will concentrate on Thrace and weaken themselves back home for Civil War time. When that's over, I can clean up what remains of Thrace. The Seleucids are holding on somehow, despite war with Egypt, Thrace, Pontus, and Armenia.

As far as advice on Carthage, have you tried assasins with spies? Have your assasins strike revenue-producing buildings (ie markets, forums, etc). This will help slow their economy. Then damage the military buildings. You can use a similiar tactic against the Scipii towns. Use assasins to hit "happiness" buildings like temples. You may get the cities to revolt and can them take them yourself. B/c you are taking a rebel city, you won't get negative messages from the Senate. You will need to have an army close by though or the evicted Scipii will take it again. As far as Palma, take the town again and exterminate like I did in Germany above. The second time around, they will be less likely to rebel against you. You may need to keep your army in town until you can build a garrison.

Keep me posted. I am almost done in Spain and am just starving out the last three towns. Otherwise, with Germany contained in the north, I am concentrating on bribing away other Romans in Italy and weakening their economy and military building capabilities with assasins.

[Emperor Aurelius]

Well arip I have annihlated Carthage but taken heavy losses in the proccess.

Let me fill you in on whats happened so far:

As said before I told youi everything I had taken over.So I bribed ANOTHER oneo f my allied brutii cities.This time the senate was furious!They decided that enough was enough and that it was time for my faction to go bye-bye.They told me I would be outlawed if I did not give back the city from the brutii.I am a newer player tothis game.So I did not know what they meant when they said outlawed.
I basically looked at the message and laughed and thought to myself "ya thats nice you guys do nothing again.As soon as this whole thing blows over I'll be sure to keep on bribing you."

The senates declaration passes and sure enough a civil war ensues.I only have 31 provinces and not the usual 50 to start the civil war!
So the civil war came earlier than usual...

It took me completly by surprise!I had not expected civil war this early!My italian cities hated my guts and my economy was getting poorer and poorer each turn!But nevertheless I was determined to take down the brutii first.Immediatly I began to construct a strong army in corduba for the invasion of north africa from the scipii.I did the same In Germany,Gaul,and my Russian provinces.

However the brutii had other plans.Instead of waiting for met to attack they took the fight right to me.The city I recently bribed was recaptured.Tehy defeated 2 then 3 and then 4 of my poorly equiped and outnumbered forces in southern Germany.They defeated 2 more of my armies in northern Italy and then took arretium in Italy.An army of mine dispatched early on in the civil war to take Rome itself was attacked by the senates army who had no intention of letting rome fall to me.In a battle I saw the senates weaker units and foolishly became arrogant and used poor tactics.My entire army was over-taken and 90% of it was annihlated.

The first 10 turns of the civil war had only one success:Russia.I managed to take one province in Russia that had a small population and my great "army of the north" which was stationed in Russia inflicted 2 great defeats on the brutii.
In the meantime my economy got worse and provinces along the Rhine revolted.

So 5 years of civil war went quite poorly right?Well I decided to change the outcome.I deployed 2 armies to north africa.They took both tingi and Carthage from the scipii.This was the perfect time to do so due to the fact that a revolt in the saharra of Africa had won independence from the scipii and that the Egyptians were launching a massive counter attack against the scipii.
Also macedon declared war on the brutii.They won several battles and took over part of dacia from the brutii.Another province was lost to the brutii in Italy and both me and the brutii fought over the city of patavium.After the city changing hands 7 times in 15 turns the populations had gone from 42,000 to 15,000 and most of the buildings had been damaged.

In response tothe heavy damage inflicted on northern Italy a large army was deplotyed from central Germany(controlled by me) into southern Germany and Dacia.It attacked a brutii city and once they took it they burnt all of the buildings to the ground adn then left.This led to an immediate revolt and now the brutii are facing rebels and are fighting over a war torn city...

So the war is mainly now a stalemate...but I am not sure to continue.

You see a funny situation has occured.Both myself,the scipii,brutii,and macedon have now all gone broke.Yes thats right the 4 great super powers of the west are now all broke.Each of us now has a negative economy and cannot produce any more soldiers.Parts of scipii controlled africa,brutii controled dacia and russia,and parts of julii(myself) controlled Germany,Britian,Italy,Gaul,and spain,and parts of the macedonian empire have now revolted.

So now the great offensives have stopped.Our empires can no longer produce any more soldiers.No more offensives are being launched.Instead our 4 great empires are just going defensive and fighting wars against rebels!

Hey Arip ever have a problem like this?You and another empire/s have been fighting one another and then everyone goes broke and is fighting rebellions?It kinda sucks but it can be fun at the same time.

At first I wasn't sure why we all went broke but then it came to me:before the war the 4 of our empires were allied including macedon.Now since alliances are gone all trade agreements are gone.Now since trade is gone all of our economies are now rubbish.Theres really no one to trade with....
But anyway its kinda like 1950s cold war thoughts.Everyone thought all the super powers would nuke ach other into oblivion and people would be living in a ruined world.Thats the way it is here in my game.All 4 of us superpowers have spent at least 45 turns fighting one anotehr in almost like a world war.And now we have basically destroyed each others empires.So now instead of having one power become the ultimate winner of the war all 4 of us lost!

[Garvanko]

Sounds like fun, Emp.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is this a v1.3 campaign? The AI actually seems to be taking a semi-rational approach.

You have two basic choices left, as I see it.

1. Send a couple of armies on prolonged extermination/(enslaving if used in combo with #2) raids to build up funds.

2. Collapse inward on the 5-6 best economic and decently geographically grouped provinces you have. Disband many of your troops to build population and decrease cost, "creaming" the rest to leave you with 1-3 stacks of superb forces. Your enemies will expand, but probably not pare down forces. This should leave you, after a period of time, with overextended enemies who you can then mangle as you expand from your newly profitable again stronghold. Drop all mercs unless they are gold valor, hefalumps, or silver plus heavy cav -- too costly.

-- might be possible to combine 1 & 2 and still return to the black in decent time.

Seamus

[Ariplatostophanes]

Wow, Emp Aur!!! I can't offer any suggestions as I've never been in your situation. Seamus' advice seems strong though. Pull everything home to a few central provinces. Personally I would demolish as I pulled back and let those cities rebel. Your enemies can take them if they want but they won't be worth much. Once you are strong and concentrated, then proceed. It would almost be like staring over, only with experienced troops instead of greens.

My game went completely different. I started the Civil War myself by attacking Rome (I broke our alliance first). The final straw was when I failed to complete their mission to blockade Campus XXX in the Black Sea. That would have meant war with Thrace (a superpower in my game) and I didn't want that. So they investigated me and I went from approx 10,000D in the black to -17000D in the red. I didn't waist any time at that point. I manuevered my armies and was able to siege Rome and everyother Roman city except one on Sicily. I've been at that point now for about two days b/c each siege takes awhile to play out, what with stone walls and all. With my last taking last night I'm at 39 provinces with Rome and three more Italian regions yet to play out. Once I free up an army and siege the last city on Sicily, all the Romans should be gone. Then I can regroup and breathe again.
I can see now that it is best to start the Civil War yourself rather than wait for it to happen. BUT you must have a plan for dealing with the other Romans quickly. The loss of income isn't tolerable for long.

[lukezter]

"One thing I wanted to point out is after the Reforms you cannot retrain your Hastati, that facility now trains Auxilla which is a pretty decent defensive unit. So any and all Hastati you have left will now get merged by you to keep them at full strength, because you cannot retrain them."

Uhm, how do I merge the units? I have a bunch of Hastati and Principes left in half-strength formations with varying degrees of experience...

Thanx in advance,

Lukezter

[Garvanko]

Highlight the units you want to merge, then Ctrl + M.

[lukezter]

Highlight the units you want to merge, then Ctrl + M.

Thanks...that should make for a easier time organizing my stacks...

[Sand]

Collapsing back in seems a little drastic, youre basically abandoning massive revenues from taxation and farming in the provinces you abandon which make it all the harder to get back in the black. I cant see there being any advantage because you dont even pay maintence on the buildings in those settlements. Cities that might have a negative income on the map might be your best cities for making cash - your army wages get split up between cities depending on the cities population as a fraction of your factions population. Thats why small cities are always positive cash and large ones usually negative on the campaign map. If you abandon the "negative" cities the army bill is still there, it just gets assigned differently now. Youve got what sounds like a basic finance problem, more going out than coming in. Rather than quitting your job, the best thing to do is examine your outgoings and seeing where you can cut back.

Just go through your armies and start disbanding everything except what you *need*, replace garrisons with peasants, make sure your trade boosting generals and retinues are in the cities that do the most trade etc etc. If you need a short term cash boost then go through your cities and demolish everything you dont need, I.E. inferior troop production far from any enemy, health buildings in settlements with 400 people, law and order temples where the PO is 200% anyway. Jack your taxes on every settlement up as high as they can go. Blue faces, all the way.

Then if youre still not raking in the cash, attack. Whilst peace+trade deals a can be used to trade with rivals, the best option is to own the cities so that the trade doesnt stop suddenly. Send your armies to take the trade rich regions. I assume you have Carthage-Sicilly, thats one. So is Corduba-Tingi. Northern Europe isnt exactly trade rich apart from Sambrovia-Londinium so if possible send a stack or two to take the Aegean which is litterally the El Dorado of R:TW.

[lukezter]

Highlight the units you want to merge, then Ctrl + M.

Thanks again for the tip Garvanko. I'm still playing my first game and I am already at 190bc without having wiped out the germans, brittons and spaniards. I was hoping someone could point me to the right forum where I can learn what units are best against the others, how to USE your units and governers effectively etc.

Thanx in advance...

[GreatEmperor]

Well, Cavalry is great against infantry, but when fighting against an enemy that has spearmen you should really be careful using them as it can result in losing lots of them if you dont flank.
When fighting against Elephants you should use archers with fire arrows because that will drop down the morale of the elephants which will make them rout and if that happens they will turn and destroy their own units.
I'm not an expert on this so you should better read Frogbeastegg's and Quietus' guide to Rome: Total War. It's full of good tips.

[Craterus]

My computer can't take fire arrows in a big battle, so when the Carthagian stack with Ele's came along, they were quite destructive. Merc hoplites make short work of them though, so the battle was won and Carthage is almost mine!

[GreatEmperor]

Finally I've completed the Julii Campaign. With only me, Seleucid and the Egyptians left I completed it. The Egyptians had the whole southern provinces with exception of Carthage which was mine. The Seleucid had the east and almost all of Scythia territory. Is it normal for those 2 to expand so much? In other Campaigns they never last long.

[Craterus]

In many of my campaigns, Seleucids are knocked out by Egypt, and Egypt continue to take the rest of Asia Minor and proceed into Africa. Seleucids never last long, but Egypt seem to have a talent for surviving

[pezhetairoi]

hello craterus! Haven't posted here in a really long time :) I see from your pic that you're getting older. Oh well.

Egypt has a talent for surviving indeed, even after installing Mundus Magnus. I really wonder why. In MM they're all over Africa already, despite my crushing 3 of their fullstacks.

[littlelostboy]

Yep, Eypt always have a knack of surviving, no matter what. That is why you need to crush them hard by taking their captial and major cities with full-stack armies and always use a extremely large navy to blockade every single port of theirs. Trust me, it worked in RTW h/h when I played as the Selucids. (Almost had a nervous breakdown, well not true, but almost).
But this is a Juli guide so I'll stick to Juli. As a Juli, your main aim is not to worry to much about those African factions, Numidia, Eypt and Carthage (although as a Juli you would come into contact with them early in the game). Leave this people to your brother (and soon to be enemy) Romans, the Scipii. Instead, lay waste to Europe! Most important is to control the whole of Spain, central and Western Europe. With that, you will have two fronts secure, with the Alantic Ocean covering your backside, (and no, there is no case of an Alantis faction yet, not in my case anywhere) and the North sea and the isle of Britainnia covering you head, all you have to worry about is the east and the south. So remember, when playing as the Juli, remember this maxim:

North and West good, South and East bad

Simple.

Now

that you had those two fronts covered, concentrate on the east because there lies those hungry Thracians who are willing to eat your lands! Not to mention those Brutii in Greece. By then, you should have over 40 regions under your control. Baby Senate would feel threatened and would ask your faction leader to commit sucide. (NO!) So you, of course, decline and immediately you would be outlawed. No worry, relax, all is not lost. Before the Senate had sent you that message, you should move two full stacks army with your very best generals and surround Rome. Also, the majority of your troops should be stationed near the East to prepare for the onslaught by the Brutii. Use forts to block all narrow roads, send in the ASSASSINS! Yes, you heard it right, assassins are good, they'll make things easier by killing off some of the generals first so you can have a nice, easy fight later.

Diplomats

are important, they can bribe whole armies away and you can get extra troops. Now that you are prepared, you can fight the Romans. Don't care about the Scipii because they'll be too busy trying to save their skins fighting the Eyptians. And this is just part I, II coming later.

I know that there is a guide but this is just a very condensed and simplified guide for all those beginners all there on how to fight back you enemies and remain the Imperator!

At your service, LLB.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

hello craterus! Haven't posted here in a really long time :) I see from your pic that you're getting older. Oh well.

Egypt has a talent for surviving indeed, even after installing Mundus Magnus. I really wonder why. In MM they're all over Africa already, despite my crushing 3 of their fullstacks.

Hey Pez', long time no post indeed. Did EB purchase you outright?

I think there is a one word answer for Egypt's success -- even when the anachronisms are modded out -- money. It may not cure all ills, but.....

[Craterus]

hello craterus! Haven't posted here in a really long time :) I see from your pic that you're getting older. Oh well.

Egypt has a talent for surviving indeed, even after installing Mundus Magnus. I really wonder why. In MM they're all over Africa already, despite my crushing 3 of their fullstacks.

I thought that picture looked young . Oh well. Good to see you back.

And on the Egypt issue, it's possible to mod the game so they start with a huge debt. Let's say -1000000 denarii would be fine. That way, the Seleucids might have a chance.

[Garvanko]

North and West good, South and East bad

Why do you say that?

Going south for Carthage is actually a excellent strategy - slow down the Scipii, gain a rich province and a foothold in Africa. Great for your economy, especially if you get Lilybaem as well.

East? Well, again depends what your overall objectives are.. Dacia, Thrace, eventually Macedon.. where there is tons of denarii, anyway.

Why restrict yourself to poor Gauls and weak Spanish?

[The Stranger]

I thought that picture looked young . Oh well. Good to see you back.

And on the Egypt issue, it's possible to mod the game so they start with a huge debt. Let's say -1000000 denarii would be fine. That way, the Seleucids might have a chance.

that would be ruining the game...the real thing is...egypt starts off with 5000 and seleucia only with 3000. if you equalised it they have a better chance...also egypt position is way favored above seleucias wich can be attacked by alot of factions, not to forget that their good units come late. enable pike phalanx to be trained earlier gives them a even better chance

[Craterus]

-1000000 is an exaggeration. If you want to see the Seleucids have a chance against the Eggy's give them a cash boost, or make the Eggy's start on -8000 or something. The Nile Delta is rich enough anway, it'll only stunt them for a few turns, so you had better hope the Seleucids make use of their advantage.