The Seleucid Empire

[Vincent Butler]

The Seleucids are fairly easy. Good cav, pikemen and legionaries, and elephants. The Silver Shield Legionaries have the same stats as the Roman Legionary Cohort, the problem is, you need your best barracks, and they take two turns to make. My method of using Seleucia is defensive at first. Because your first unit is Militia Hoplites, in my opinion the best first infantry unit, you can just barricade your streets when you are attacked. Granted, I have only used them on Easy/Easy, but you can build up a military while the enemy throws themselves onto your phalanx. Use one or two of your towns to build up a good army (Antioch is probably the best for this). Egypt usually attacks it just when I am getting ready to move my army out, so I have started putting my armies that I am training on ships in a harbor, that way I can move them out as soon as I am done building the army. I also keep a backup army of elephants when I have gotten out of elephant territories, to replace my elephant losses. Seleucids are pretty well set for money, so that should not be an issue. Once you get to Phalanx Pikemen, you can really start your offensive.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Granted, I have only used them on Easy/Easy

Aye, and there's the rub

Because if, on more difficult settings, you do this :

My method of using Seleucia is defensive at first.

......then you will be facing hordes of Chariot Archers for which, early in the campaign, Seleucia has no good answer except to throw scads of cheap militia cavalry at them. Later on that will change with the acquisition of Cretan Archers fronted by pikes, but you have to get to that stage first

Because your first unit is Militia Hoplites, in my opinion the best first infantry unit

.....able to hold their own against Nubian Spears, but inferior to Nile Spears. Once Desert Axemen begin to appear, your Militia Hoplites will simply melt into the desert sands. And you absolutely have to protect their flanks or their poor morale will have you wondering where your army went Get to Levy Pike ASAP...they at least have more mass and are able to withstand Desert Cav and Nile Spear much better. Of course, they are only transitional to the better pike available to the Selkies. Phalanx Pike will be a mainstay for quite awhile until you can get Silver Shield Pike.

Seleucids are pretty well set for money, so that should not be an issue.

That is your "ace-in-the-hole". Once you you beat off the initial assaults by the Big E, Pontus, and everyone else you can start cranking out assault armies.

[Vincent Butler]

The problem with Levy Pikemen is their defense is so low. The extra attack is countered by low defense. Of course, Pharoah's Guard can push their way through either unit. I just make sure the Desert Axemen don't penetrate the phalanx. They are not very good anyway, from my experience. Again, Easy/Easy. Most of my fighting is done in the city. Of course, once I get to Phalanx Pikemen that is all I train. I don't use Silver Shield Pikemen much, mainly as garrison troops, until late in the campaign because of the level of barracks required to build them. That is why I do not use Silver Shield Legionaries, who require a Royal Barracks. Ditto for the cav. Too bad it is Cataphracts in the Elite Cav Stables and Companion Cav in the Royal, instead of the other way around.

[ReluctantSamurai]

The problem with Levy Pikemen is their defense is so low. The extra attack is countered by low defense.

True that their defense of 5 is three lower than the militia (don't really agree with that, just like I don't agree with Silver Shield Legionaires having a defense as high as 22 while the best Seleucid phalanx unit, Silver Shield Pike, is as low as 13). But they have 50% more mass, and that is the key. If you stretch the unit a bit on deployment, it's very difficult for an enemy unit to get a "wraparound" effect on them resulting in some attacks being from the flank...which will negate the shield bonus.

I've never conducted custom battles to prove this....I just know that Levy Pike perform better for me than Militia Hoplites. I believe total mass outweighs the lesser defense stat, and using the sarissa has your phalanx staying with their pikes while the militia hoplites will be switching to their swords much sooner because an enemy unit can get in close (thereby lessening their defensive value once their phalanx begins to disintegrate)

Of course I'm not suggesting the use of Levy Pike on a long-term basis, but they seem more serviceable than Militia Hoplites until you can get to Phalanx Pike....

I like having a couple of Silver Shield Pikes to anchor my center....their better stats and very high morale make them an extremely hard nut to crack. The morale bonus will make you very thankful to have them at higher difficulty settings where the AI gets insane combat boosts

Too bad it is Cataphracts in the Elite Cav Stables and Companion Cav in the Royal, instead of the other way around.

Odd that you would prefer Militia Hoplites over Levy Pike going with a statistically higher defense, yet prefer Companion Cavalry over the heavy Cat, where the same situation occurs [attk/def] (10/17 for Companions, 7/23 for Cataphracts). IIRC, the charge bonus is the same for either unit. Don't get me wrong, I like the Companions, but IMHO the Cats are better "line-busters" because here the 6 extra points of defense really does help. Again, I have not conducted custom battles to test this...just that on the battlefield the Cats seem better at breaking infantry. I usually use Companions to counter enemy cavalry, being lancers and all. Sorta like using Yari Cav in Shogun

A devastating combo is to have your Cats follow the Ellies in....enemy center>>>>SPLAT; have the Companions follow the Scythed Chariots....enemy flanks>>>>SPLAT

[Vincent Butler]

Scythed Chariots are one unit I absolutely do NOT make. They seem pointless. Especially as your main enemy, Egypt, has a phalanx, and even slingers are effective against chariots. Found that out, incidentally, as Parthia against Scythed Chariots. The main thing about Companion Cav is that they are faster. And I use cavalry different than infantry. Infantry does my main fighting, so I prefer higher defense. What cavalry I train depends on the role I want for them. For running off ranged units or enemy light cav I use Greek/Roman Cav. I pin the enemy with my heavy infantry, then slam them with my heavy cav or lancers, if I am Macedon. I use Cataphracts, but would rather have Companion Cav, and do not use elephants much, it would take too much effort to try to find out how to use them effectively and training is an issue. Where elephants can be trained, Egypt is there with their Pharoah's Bowmen. I have never played Shogun, just Rome and a little Medieval 2.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Scythed Chariots are one unit I absolutely do NOT make. They seem pointless.

Scythed Chariots, if used properly, can be a very effective weapon. I would not consider myself an expert on their use, but here's a few things I've learned. First, their main function is not to generate kills. If you zoom close you'll see that they knock more soldiers over than they kill. However, there is a hidden plus to that...they totally disrupt enemy unit formation, making that unit extremely vulnerable to a cavalry charge. This is why I suggested an echelon attack with the chariots leading followed closely by cavalry. I've broken even Spartan Hoplites with ease using this method. Given that chariots don't generate a lot of outright kills, and they become dead meat if they stop moving or become bogged down in melee, you don't target units directly with them but you target a point beyond, usually far to the rear of the enemy army. Your chariots will attempt to move through all enemies they contact, and you reorganize them to repeat their movement back through enemy units if needed.

Scythed Chariots are deadly against cavalry. After sweeping through an enemy cavalry unit, that unit will be lucky to have even half their original numbers left standing. Used in this fashion, Scythed Chariots are a fearsome weapon in the arsenal, IMHO. It just takes a little practice, and a little patience, but the rewards are immense.

For running off ranged units or enemy light cav I use Greek/Roman Cav.

THE best unit for running off skirmishers, missile units and chasing routers are undoubtedly Arab Cavalry. They are faster than any other cavalry unit except the Macedonian Light Lancer, and if you use them in the desert where they get all their bonuses, they will catch and kill those uncatchable routing generals. Besides, what's not to like about scimitar-wielding maniacs in green and black?

and do not use elephants much, it would take too much effort to try to find out how to use them effectively and training is an issue. Where elephants can be trained, Egypt is there with their Pharoah's Bowmen.

Ummm...one of the main reasons for playing Seleucia is for the Ellies They are simply the best line-buster in the game [and who doesn't like the animation of enemy soldiers tossed through the air like rag dolls] Pharaoh's Bowmen....bah.....if your general is a good one (preferably a cavalry genius with morale-boosting qualities), enemy archers can spend all the time and flame arrows they want trying to cause my ellies to run amok. In fact, I prefer the enemy archers wasting their time trying to do that instead of shooting at a unit where they can do some damage. I've only ever had the "baby" ellies go amok on me...never a War Elephant or a Cataphract Ellie....ever.

it would take too much effort to try to find out how to use them effectively and training is an issue.

To each their own, but you are missing out on one of Seleucia's main weapons. Training? No more so than the same two turns for Cats or Companions

I pin the enemy with my heavy infantry, then slam them with my heavy cav or lancers

You can do this because the RTW AI is so predictable. Too bad you never played Shogun I because there, after a few setbacks, the AI would see your infantry-heavy army and begin to throw scads of Cavalry Archers and Naginata Cavalry at you. Your infantry would wear themselves out trying to engage such an army.

*...and one of the things Myth has been trying to talk me into is for him to face down one of my Armenian Cataphract armies....an entire 20 unit army composed of nothing but Cataphract Archers and Heavy Cats with one of his Roman Legionary armies

[Vincent Butler]

Just a note on historic use of Scythe Chariots, it is my understanding that Darius overestimated their abilities when fighting an organized army. They were great when attacking a disorganized mob, but at Gaugamela, Alexander's peltasts killed the charioteers. Any weapon has a counter to it. The only time I have seen flaming arrows used against a unit of mine was against my Armoured Elephants. That said, they are devastating to warband and falxmen. If taking your elephants (especially Armoured) against barbarians, you will not need to bring along too many replacements, you will not lose many because the quality of the enemy units is at best decent.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Agreed that scythed chariots are long outdated for the time period of R1...but between the fantasy units, outdated units, and pre-dated units (anything Praetorian, Urban, Cohort II, etc. as the Lorica Segmentata armor didn't appear until A.D. times....), you probably won't have much roster left for some factions

I was just pointing up a very effective way to use scythed chariots if you choose to do so

[Vincent Butler]

[QUOTE=ReluctantSamurai;2053595714]
THE best unit for running off skirmishers, missile units and chasing routers are undoubtedly Arab Cavalry. They are faster than any other cavalry unit except the Macedonian Light Lancer, and if you use them in the desert where they get all their bonuses, they will catch and kill those uncatchable routing generals. Besides, what's not to like about scimitar-wielding maniacs in green and black?

That would be awesome.

Training? No more so than the same two turns for Cats or Companions

I meant training by location, they can only be trained in very limited areas.

You can do this because the RTW AI is so predictable. Too bad you never played Shogun I because there, after a few setbacks, the AI would see your infantry-heavy army and begin to throw scads of Cavalry Archers and Naginata Cavalry at you. Your infantry would wear themselves out trying to engage such an army.

Now I typically counter cav archers with light cav, if I fight a cav archer army I use bring more light cav than usual. Good strategy or no? If nothing else, it gets them busy doing something (like running) instead of shooting at my infantry. I prefer my foot archers wear down their troops who will be doing most of their fighting. I tailor my armies to who I am fighting, and in EB to which troops can be trained where. More cav = more spearmen, more infantry = more swordsmen and archers. More missile cav = more light cav. Are Naginata Cav firearm-armed or javelin? Anyway, heavy infantry, at least in RTW, have the defense to withstand CAs. I take it that is not so in Shogun? And how do you copy multiple quotes from the same post?

And he called unto him two centurions, saying, Make ready two hundred soldiers to go to Caesarea, and horsemen threescore and ten, and spearmen two hundred, at the third hour of the night; And provide them beasts, that they may set Paul on, and bring him safe unto Felix the governor. Acts 23:23,24

[ReluctantSamurai]

You are, of course, correct about the province restriction as to where you can train Ellies. One tactic I use (for any faction that gets Ellies) especially when I land on distant shores with them is to keep a replacement unit or two sitting off-shore in a fleet. That way I can simply debark the replacement unit and bring my fighting units back to full strength. I also do this with mercs.

Now I typically counter cav archers with light cav, if I fight a cav archer army I use bring more light cav than usual. Good strategy or no?

Probably the only way to fight them off in numbers. The Shogun AI always went after your Cavalry Archers with Yari Cav (the fastest unit in the game). I learned real quick to keep some of my own Yari Cav nearby to my Cav Archers to keep enemy cav away or kill them.

Naginata Cavalry:

http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Naginata_...%28STW_unit%29

Anyway, heavy infantry, at least in RTW, have the defense to withstand CAs

Cataphract Archers will decimate even heavy infantry with archery alone even from the front:

http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/strat...tle/CataClass/

Because of their mobility of getting to the flanks or rear, they force infantry units to turn and face them (retaining their shield bonus) and that's when the heavy Cats go to work

Scroll down the list to find them. Vanilla stat is a missile attack of 7....add 1 more for each missile upgrade....add 1 more for each experience chevron (up to nine)....add bonus modifiers from a cavalry general.......well, you get the idea.

It worked this way even historically:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carrhae

In Shogun, the purpose of Cavalry Archers was harassment. You got enemy formations to break up trying to either defend against them, or chase them. If the AI broke off some foot archers to deal with them, you sent the cavalry to melee to destroy them. If the AI sent Yari Cav after them, your own Yari engaged. A tough nut to crack either way....

[Vincent Butler]

You are, of course, correct about the province restriction as to where you can train Ellies. One tactic I use (for any faction that gets Ellies) especially when I land on distant shores with them is to keep a replacement unit or two sitting off-shore in a fleet. That way I can simply debark the replacement unit and bring my fighting units back to full strength. I also do this with mercs.

A strategy I followed as well. I may have stopped because of my tendency to fight defensively, elephants are not effective in a defensive setup. I have since learned to use the phalanx offensively (unless defensive is to my advantage due to terrain). The fleet thing is actually nice for preparing an army, usually my experienced ones. If it is a city that will come under siege a lot, I will train a replacement garrison unit of some kind until I have a sufficient-sized garrison and send the experienced ones to the ship, one by one or two; it takes a while sometimes, but that way I have a sufficient garrison, and my experienced army is able to conquer instead of sitting inside of a siege, or getting attacked and constantly needing to replace losses while I am building a garrison.

[williamsiddell]

elephants are not effective in a defensive setup.

If I remember correctly, elephants have more superior defensive attributes. They also appear to attract a lot of enemy attention. I would plant them somewhere off an exposed flank and put in defensive mode. The enemy will attack in numbers and eventually the elephants go amok. At that point, because they are away from your troops, they'll do damage to the others rather than yours.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I would plant them somewhere off an exposed flank and put in defensive mode

Then you would be wasting their potential and would be better off not using them. Guys....the whole purpose of ellies is to smash enemy formations with their charge. They need to be used in an offensive way, though you shouldn't get reckless with them. As I've already stated, ellies disrupt enemy formations so badly that a follow-up cavalry charge usually routs whatever unit that just got bowled over.

eventually the elephants go amok

I've played extensively with ellies, and the only ones I've ever had go amok are the "baby" ones. Never, ever, have I had a War ellie or an Armoured ellie go amok (and I play at VH/H). Because of their expense they always get paired with my better (best) generals that have all kinds of stat bonuses for cavalry (including morale), and I actually prefer enemy archers to waste their time shooting flame arrows at my ellies where they do no damage, instead of at something they can damage.

[williamsiddell]

Historically you are absolutely right - elephants were used offensively (and you also know that they were negated by creating corridors for them to pass harmlessly through).

I can only base what I say in the game by what I've seen. Attacks on my forces always result in them running amok - after causing a couple of holes. But the AI isn't smart enough to take advantage. My experience is also that they attract AI units - so if I have elephants I use them as scapegoats to draw off the enemy while I stuff them elsewhere. They of course might die :)

[ReluctantSamurai]

Of course we all know that RTW is anything but historical.

Ellies are just too damn expensive to be used as decoys, IMHO. Take my advice and pair them with generals that have battlefield bonuses...you won't be disappointed

If you don't feel comfortable using them...then don't. Seleucia has a good enough roster to win without them, tho' I'd question why you'd want to play Seleucia in the first place if you don't AFAICS, ellies are one of the main reasons for playing Seleucia

[williamsiddell]

Not gonna argue with any of that. You've hit the nail on the head - I don't like elephants (or scythed chariots) because, for all you say they're trustworthy, I always feel I'm not in full control. Aye, it's not a good idea to waste cash - so I would only buy if flush.

[Vincent Butler]

Preferring to control mainly infantry, I feel as if Elephants are just one more thing for me to try to keep track of. I usually only have two or three units of cav, not including my general. Depends on who I am fighting, I tailor my armies accordingly. Archers, especially simple ones like bowmen or Greek style, will not do much damage to heavy infantry, at least not when used by the AI. In my experience, that goes for cav archers as well. Just don't let your infantry get hit in the rear, that's the bugger about fighting cav archers. If you prefer cav, break up formations with elephants, clean up with your Companion Cav and Cataphracts. Just don't hit phalanx head on with elephants.

AFAICS, ellies are one of the main reasons for playing Seleucia

I like the fact of pikemen + heavy cav, I started using them before I found out how to mod to play all units, and Macedon would get boring if that was all you did for that combination. Having the elephants available is an added perk, to me. Seleucia's legionaries are good, but needing a top level barracks + 2 turns to recruit them, in my opinion they are not worth bringing on a campaign; hire some mercs, or better yet, use your cav to protect your flanks. If you like the pike-infantry combo but want some missile cav, Seleucia can train Militia Cav, which Macedon cannot train.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Preferring to control mainly infantry, I feel as if Elephants are just one more thing for me to try to keep track of. I usually only have two or three units of cav, not including my general

Works fine with factions that have good infantry. But you will need to learn how to use cavalry in order to play all of the factions. Parthia and Scythia are the first two that come to mind. Even their best infantry is total crap. You live and die by the mounted bow (although Parthia gets ellies). Carthage is another that comes to mind. Although you will eventually have Sacred Band phalanx, they take a loooong time to get to. In the meantime, Iberian Infantry and Libyan Spear gets decimated by Hastati and Principes. Your Round Shield Cavalry are barely serviceable, and Long Shields are only slightly better. With the Romans on you from the git, you live or die by your elephants and a superior navy.

Pontus will eventually get Phalanx Pike, but your best unit is the Pontus Heavy Cav. With those and Cappadocians, you can take on the Big E.

Just don't hit phalanx head on with elephants.

There isn't an infantry unit in the game that Armored Elephants can't take head on in the hands of a cavalry general. That includes elite phalanx like Royals, Silver/Bronze, Sacred Band, or Spartans.

[Vincent Butler]

So they don't die if they hit the spears? In my experience, and I had the spears, it was the same thing that happens as when chariots hit a phalanx, instant death, only with elephants, sometimes the elephants fall on top of the phalanx and kill some of them.

[ReluctantSamurai]

You'll note I said Armored Elephants. Also note I said "in the hands of a cavalry general". My cavalry generals eventually get to legendary status in several categories, and all those bonuses stack and are conveyed to his troops.

[williamsiddell]

My cavalry generals eventually get to legendary status in several categories

Do you keep your generals alive? I know they can live to a great age but usually only by reloading when they die. I know that if you quicksave immediately before turn end and if you don't like the turn end outcome, reloading the quicksave will give a different outcome. Also if you have spare assassins, diplomats and spies then reloading the save game, performing an action, then resaving before turn end also changes outcomes. This can be done many times for one turn, but rather that interminable reloads I limit myself to the first.

Concerning elephants - if I were playing a human I would definitely use them cos we know how to follow up. Also, think how irritated the enemy human would be :) I just don't like using them against the AI and I'm happy when the AI uses them against me.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Do you keep your generals alive?

I don't do anything artificial to keep a family member alive...when it's their time, it's their time. Every faction gets their "Military Genius" at some point. When that happens, that's the opportunity to start a line of superior field generals. He will never see the inside of any city wall, and by the time his career is over he will have etched at least a dozen 'historical' battle markers in the sands.....

This can be done many times for one turn, but rather that interminable reloads I limit myself to the first.

It's been my experience that only the first reload changes the result. After that, no matter what changes you make prior to hitting 'end turn', the results are the same

[williamsiddell]

I don't remember seeing a military genius - I need to pay more attention!

I used that multiple reload method when I first started - spy, save, end turn, reload, diplomat, save, end turn, reload and so on - and got varying results for plague, death etc. each time. I specifically left those units, where I could, to last for that reason. Very early on there isn't much happening but further into the game - plenty of changes.

[Vincent Butler]

It's been my experience that only the first reload changes the result. After that, no matter what changes you make prior to hitting 'end turn', the results are the same

I have observed that at least for autoresolved battles, the if the reload doesn't yield the desired result after the second attempt, you will not change the outcome.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I have observed that at least for autoresolved battles, the if the reload doesn't yield the desired result after the second attempt, you will not change the outcome.

That's been my observation for subterfuge attempts, as well. Nothing changes, no matter what you do after the second attempt

[williamsiddell]

It's easy when you think something is obvious to take it for granted that everybody knows. I suppose I missed the clues in posts I'd read elsewhere, because I was thinking 'why are you finding that so hard when it was a relative breeze for me?' I spotted right at the start that RTW used a number stack to simulate dice throws and didn't reseed on reload. That's why early on I was performing 12+ reloads every turn.

Any enemy general with a rating of at least 24% would be dead before the end of the turn. And memorably, I attacked 4 cities in one turn - only one of which opened it's gates and by turn end all four had. It got too easy so I cut back on the reloads and started trying to solve the insoluble (Tanais for instance)

Nothing much may appear to change after turn end, but it has. For instance an auto-resolve will have a different number of casualties or a sea battle will have different losses. As far as subterfuge is concerned there is no guarantee that an event will not repeat (the next dice throw may have the same effect). What you need to do on reload is use another dice throw, save and end turn.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I don't make a big deal out of reloads. In fact, I rarely ever do them, anymore. If a spy or assassin dies on a subterfuge attempt....I can train more of them. I don't autocalc field battles except occasionally against brigand units when I don't want to be bothered chasing down a few piss-ant rebels. Siege battles on walled cities I almost always AR because I've already done them so many times and they are too tedious to do anymore.

so I cut back on the reloads and started trying to solve the insoluble (Tanais for instance)

I really wish you would quit saying this because it's becoming rather insulting whether you intend it or not. Tanais is most definitely NOT unsolvable...I've shown you proof. Now if you want to continue on your crusade to find another way other than ZPG, I wholeheartedly encourage you to try. But please stop saying that this city or that city's problems are unsolvable. I've already been there, seen it, done it, and come up with a viable solution that works.

[williamsiddell]

I really wish you would quit saying this because it's becoming rather insulting

That is not the intention. We have been talking at cross purposes throughout. You have a valid solution to cities like Tanais - my aim is purely to find a way to reduce the garrison (so far insoluble). I presume that, although you apply ZPG, you still need a substantial garrison, given distance, culture penalty, and built in unrest.

As I say I rarely reload anymore, but when you're starting out it makes the game easier as you stumble around.

[ReluctantSamurai]

That is not the intention. We have been talking at cross purposes throughout.

I know it was not intentional, but you worded your comment like it was fact. I don't think we've been at cross purposes...I presented a solution to the problem of unrest, which you don't care for. That's perfectly fine. Again, it's a game, and we presumably play to have fun, so have fun with it.

And yes, a more substantial garrison is needed the further one gets from the capital. That's the cost of doing business, so-to-speak. To me, that's the lesser of two evils...having the extra expense of larger garrisons, or constantly having to deal with revolts I make millions of denarii despite the garrison expense, so I'm happy.....

If you want a nuts and bolts look at the effects of garrisons:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...rrison-Effects

[williamsiddell]

If you want a nuts and bolts look at the effects of garrisons

Checked out the link. I can do the maths - just not this time of night. It raises an issue for me, but I'm not sure how important. I'm playing v1.5 gold of a sequence that started at v1.0 in 2010. Plus I think there were patches in the noughties. I don't know how relevant old posts are - particularly pre-2010.

Also academies don't have a public order bonus, but I've seen a reference that upgrades may have a law bonus. I hope they do because that will help.