The problem with elephants..

[Morindin]

If your Triarii can surround the Elephants they go down fairly quickly and panic after 3 or 4 of them are dead.

[Red Harvest]

If your Triarii can surround the Elephants they go down fairly quickly and panic after 3 or 4 of them are dead.

Yeah, like the rest of the army is going to stand around and wait while I take on a single elephant unit with a couple of triarii. Get real.

[Morindin]

I dont care what the Romans used in the past to deal with Elephants.

In the COMPUTER GAME Triarii work fine, I have replays (from multiplayer) and WILL post them tonight when I get home.
Considering the cost of Elephants vs the cost of Triarii even if it takes two units to down one unit of Elephant that's still a win win for the Romans.

Im not sure why you are not having any success. I can guess though.
Just because you havnt properly learnt how to deal with Elephants doesnt mean you should scream out on the messageboards how overpowered they are.

When I first encountered them unsuccessfully I posted a topic stating my successes and my unsuccesses against them and asked everyone elses opinion, not starting topics ranting on about history and how things should work in my own little world.

Yeah, like the rest of the army is going to stand around and wait while I take on a single elephant unit with a couple of triarii. Get real.

This is a ridiculous statement and a waste of my bandwidth really. I could say the same about the rest of my army, or about spears vs horses in MTW, or anything really. Why did you even post this?

Most battles evolve like this. Someone sends in something that counters something, then the other person sends in the other counter, etc etc etc.

[Red Harvest]

No, your statements are ridiculous.

First, this is supposed to be historically based. Historical tactics should work and unit size should have some sense of scale. Kill rates should make some sense. Rout speed should make some sense. When they don't, we comment. Pila should have some effect on these beasts. As it is, they don't.

Second, it is preposterous to believe that the overall effect in battle is unimportant and only single unit matchups matter. I'm quite good at using units in the field. However, with RTW I don't get to use them effectively in groups of more than a handful. Why? Because gameplay is MUCH too fast and there are problems with the basic engine. I'm very good at using counters and looking for good matchups and flanking. However, units that should hold for quite some time break in seconds. That is why I've gone to light cav based armies. And I'm tearing up the AI with them on "very hard." I use cav rushes or pick at the periphery. What gives me trouble? The Numidians javs because they are very fast.

Third, I could care less about your multiplayer exploits because I'm talking about SP. It clearly shows the problem with your argument--apples to oranges. Can the other player issue commands as rapidly as the AI? Can the other player do the schooling fish thing with his units and cav? No, those are AI features. Post meaningless replays if you like, I won't bother with them.

[Thoros of Myr]

Armored phants are pretty tough, took me 5 units of Triarii to down 1 unit of them
(basic valour/weapons, very hard diff, large units size)

[Morindin]

No, your statements are ridiculous.

First, this is supposed to be historically based. Historical tactics should work and unit size should have some sense of scale. Kill rates should make some sense. Rout speed should make some sense. When they don't, we comment. Pila should have some effect on these beasts. As it is, they don't.

Second, it is preposterous to believe that the overall effect in battle is unimportant and only single unit matchups matter. I'm quite good at using units in the field. However, with RTW I don't get to use them effectively in groups of more than a handful. Why? Because gameplay is MUCH too fast and there are problems with the basic engine. I'm very good at using counters and looking for good matchups and flanking. However, units that should hold for quite some time break in seconds. That is why I've gone to light cav based armies. And I'm tearing up the AI with them on "very hard." I use cav rushes or pick at the periphery. What gives me trouble? The Numidians javs because they are very fast.

Third, I could care less about your multiplayer exploits because I'm talking about SP. It clearly shows the problem with your argument--apples to oranges. Can the other player issue commands as rapidly as the AI? Can the other player do the schooling fish thing with his units and cav? No, those are AI features. Post meaningless replays if you like, I won't bother with them.

First, its supposed to be a game with historical references, not the other way around. That's your first problem.

Second, all my experiances with Triarii have been in battles against Humans and the AI. I havnt even touched the custom battle screen for any "experiments". Dont make assumptions. Also the fast pace of a battle can be completely nullified by having a good initial deployment, and as your units get stronger they rate of death gets slower.

Third I am not using multiplayer "exploits". The replays I post will be mainly from "histroical battles". Humans cant issue orders as fast as an AI but you also cant pause in multiplayer. And besides, a unit of elephants even not issued any orders will still attack everything in its path once let lose.

As for the replays, fine. Dont watch them but if you think you know it all about a game that has barely been out for a week, and refuse to listen or watch other peopls ideas you wont learn anything, and youll keep losing. No skin off my nose.

I think you need to sort your out what you expect from a computer game. When I fly planes in LOMAC, I hardly expect everything to be perfectly 100% accurate (which is impossible) and I remember it is a game, and have fun doing so.

Besides, why dont you put away RTW and go back to MTW? Or at least give the game a month before considering yourself an "Expert" on the game and pointing out all the "imbalances".

[The_Emperor]

Take it easy guys.

Now I had a poke around the TWC forums and I found a thread there about Anti-Elephant tactics.

According to what i have read (can't test it except probably if I mod the demo)

if you are without Missiles (Archers are the units of choice with flaming arrows, followed by velites and skirmishers) Spearmen can deal with elephant units if they bog them down. One tactic that was sugguested was making sure your men are in guard mode and loose formation before the charge, this aparantly prevents too many of them dying in the initial charge phase...

Cavalry are even sugguested in a flanking attack... (given their spears) but they must not slug it out.

Other tactics mentioned included the use of Horse archers and chariots, or even siege weapons.

When Friday comes around I'll be able to join in the testing.

[Thoros of Myr]

Loose formation is critical with the triarii but I found it better to charge them just as they get to you rather then stand and recieve the charge in guard mode.

The other thing is make your front line is long and have atleast 1 unit in a second rank position to reinforce the center.

[Morindin]

First take a look at this screenshot. This is from a game I had a while back.


The elephants have ripped through my Legions like butter, a badly hurt unit of Triarii are engaging them. Another one is getting read to be sent in.



My second unit of Triarii kicks the Elephants butt, sending them routing off in all directions (practically harmless as they only kill men with their bucks). Notice how many Triarii are still intact, heaps!

Also take note there is only one dead elephant in the breach. Most of the elephants died when my Triarii surrounded them and engaged them outside of the breach.

Elephants are like modern day tanks, very tough on the front but they do have their weaknesses.

[Red Harvest]

LOL, Morindin. You just proved my point. THANKS!!! Look at what those elephants did despite the confined space and number of units they were facing. And I don't see other troops on the ground supporting the elephants (just dead men.) When I face them I don't get a nice little set piece like this. Talk about a stacked deck, and it was still ugly. How long would the triarii have survived in loose formation vs. infantry supporting the elephants? Not long.