The problem with elephants..

**Morindin** · 09-28-2004, 23:37

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

LOL, Morindin. You just proved my point. THANKS!!! Look at what those elephants did despite the confined space and number of units they were facing. And I don't see other troops on the ground supporting the elephants (just dead men.) When I face them I don't get a nice little set piece like this. Talk about a stacked deck, and it was still ugly. How long would the triarii have survived in loose formation vs. infantry supporting the elephants? Not long.

This is a circular argument you realise. If there was no breach he could get his troops in to support his elephants but I could also use mine to support my Triarii!

Fact of the matter, Elephants are tough to take down but not impossible. Your infantry should be fighting their infantry, I know its not as simple as that but there you go. I have played heaps of games against Elephants in a combined arms situation (such as the historical battle from the Demo) against the AI and human opponents and guess what, Triarii STILL kick their butts (especially the non armoured ones).

You cant just make blanket statements that "Elephants + soldiers kill triarii". Of COURSE they do. But do "Elephants + Soldiers kill Triarii + Cavalry" ? No.

In that matchup situation the later would win, but again this is a circular argument and we could go on all day. I have provided evidence of Elephants losing against thier matchup. What have you provided apart from arrogence?

A unit is only "overpowered" if it beats its matchup at a cost effective ratio, i.e. FMAA in MTW is a classic example. Not only do elephants lose against their matchup, but two units of Triarii cost about 1500 and one unit of Elephants is what, over 2000?

If you are losing in a combined arms situation and Elephants are the main contributor to that, I suggest you either use better tactics such as isolating his main force FROM his elephants using bait, or, revise your own armies to make the matchup more suitable.

What exactly is your problem with them anyway? Do they wipe out your infantry too quickly? If they have a lot of elephants you should have an advantage in numbers somewhere, and be ready for the fact your going to sustain a lot of casualties. Who cares though if the amount of men you lose on a cost based ratio is less than the cost of those Elephants.

Oh and I won that game BTW. I managed to rout his other groups of Elephants using fire from my siege. Elephants are definately a double edged sword. All it requires is adaptive thinking to meet the challange.

**Red Harvest** · 09-28-2004, 23:54

I see circular logic alright. You post a stacked deck "proof" and call me arrogant. Their are some big time problems with the speed of this engine. It is making the cav much more powerful than they should be.

When I've bought elephants they were about 1250 per unit. I think their total upkeep was less than the two Triarii as well...

I don't think there is anything left for the two of us to discuss.

**Morindin** · 09-29-2004, 00:12

Cavalry is about the only thing that is the RIGHT speed in this game. Ive ridden plenty of horses by the way.
If anything its INFANTRY which is too fast which would REDUCE the effectiveness of cavalry.

Actually it has nothing to do with speed at all, but more to do with the fact the AI is pretty pathetic at protecting its flanks according to most people. From what Ive seen of the AI so far it makes a point of protecting its flanks against cavalry but you can catch it out with large numbers.
Also spear units in the game come generally later ill reserve my judgement about cavalry until I consider myself experianced in the entire campaign.

Due to all the hype last night about cavalry I attacked the British would a large army of Roman Cavalry units. I danced them around all over the place, hit flanks, recharged and charged again (he had 0 spear units) and I still took considerable casualties. In the end I lost because his damn chariots kept scaring away my troops. I managed to rout a lot of his troops for sure, but it didnt feel overpowered in any way. Cavalry after all is the infantrys match up.

**Maedhros** · 09-30-2004, 04:58

elephants do tons of damage but they can be beaten.

After two days of playing I no longer fear them. When I encounter elephants I tend to lose more men than normal. But I can still beat them. Keep your men mobile and when you have to get hit put your Hestati into Guard. They will last longer.

Then CHarge the elephants from all around while hammering with Javelins and arrows.

There is also a post about wardogs. They are good for keeping the elephants busy while you rout the main force. The pups will reduce their morale. Once that happens it is hard to lose. The elephants also seem to have HPs. Sustained fire will slowly wear them down. First few hits will seem to have no effect but maintain fire it will.

Remember too, much depends on the ground you stand on. Flanking. and generals. If you face elephants led by a high valour gen you may be toast. Unless you have mass numbers of quality troops.

**Swoosh So** · 09-30-2004, 10:03

Sigh here we go again ELEPHANTSARE TO POWERFULL THEY CAN BEAT MY HVY INF!! well news flash thats what theyre supposed to do. Elephants are easily countered, and can also be a weapon for the opponenet as well if you know how. Now im not talking flamig pigs (whichi refuse to use, along with flaming arrows and artillery). If some player lets me charge elephants into his hvy infantry then what does he/she expect? Its like shouting your scissor beat my paper!! or your rock beat my scissor!! For a start units which are being charged by elephants should immediatly be put on open formation (this will reduce casualties alot - eventhe ingame advisor tells you to do this), in mp battles elephants cost 1250 or so denari, now considering most play 10,000 denari that leaves under 9k for 19 more units. So certainly no cost issue and i dont see a cost issue in sp gmae either due to upkeep and cost.

I wont diverge all my tactics for elephants as half the fun is finding out for yourself, someone earlier said triaria (good call) phalanx works just as well if not better, a stationary phalanx i mean or at least one in somesort of order. Months ago on time commanders neusbacher was talking about how to deal with elephants and ca seem to have taken it on board, missles, light infantry phalanx. and if u cant manage that and want to use them the u can always use pigs..........

I wonder if these people who complain that their hvy inf get mashed even had thos units on fire at will (if romaan units) as you will deliver a painful pilum volley to the elephants b4 they hit, and if u have 4 units side by side then thats 4 volleys on 1 elephant unit.

Experiment abit the games not been out long....were all learning but i dont think everyone should shout imbalance first chance they get. Cav overpowered? U havent seent he 90% roman foot armies in action online i guess.....