The problem with elephants..

[Red Harvest]

After an intensive RTW-experience I'm back again..


Now I made some good test ranges vs Elephants since the demo and I will make a guide soon, but here are some basic points...


Elephant-killers...


Phalanx-units can stop them well - very well, my two German Warbands stop with some relative little losses the Armored Warelephants. They must be well ordered though

The Romans must rely on the Merc. Hoplite instead of the Triarii - this guys are their money well worth against these pesky animals

The Hellenic Phalangites with their longer spears are the bane of them - there is no way one of them makes it through the lines attacking from the front - at least on very heavy on my version in my tests..


More to come soon..

OA

Oleander,

You are right about the Hellenic Phalangites with longer spears/and or larger units being show stoppers for the elephants. However, I've been able to crash the base level elephants through the 80 man phalangites. They hold up better than the triarii and really slow the beasts down, but the elephants make it through.

The problem with a few hoplites as a counter is twofold: 1. the infantry or cav behind the elephants will likely tip the scales in favor of the beasts. 2. It is not easy to use the hoplites in a mobile fashion to meet elephants frontally.

Those incindiary pigs rout the elephants immediately, LOL. Entertaining.

I ran these tests on medium.

[ChaosLord]

I've been taking on(and killing) elephants with Hastati in my campaign. This last battle I just put my first two units of Hastati on defensive mode, then when the elephants broke through I brought my other units in using missles/surrounding them. They broke pretty quickly. Out of however many they get on max unit size only like five of them escaped to retreat, so I don't think they're that uber. The only time i've seen them be real killers is when I was stupid and sent my Equites against some elepahnts. Besides for that i've been killing them easily without taking abnormal losses.

I just treat them like I did king/prince cav units in M:TW. They're a threat, but only if left unchecked.

[DisruptorX]

In my campaign a unit of elephants charged my pikemen phalanx. The elephants died the instant they touched the tips of my spears. Hardly overpowered. Normal difficulty.

[Morindin]

Oleander,

You are right about the Hellenic Phalangites with longer spears/and or larger units being show stoppers for the elephants. However, I've been able to crash the base level elephants through the 80 man phalangites. They hold up better than the triarii and really slow the beasts down, but the elephants make it through.

The problem with a few hoplites as a counter is twofold: 1. the infantry or cav behind the elephants will likely tip the scales in favor of the beasts. 2. It is not easy to use the hoplites in a mobile fashion to meet elephants frontally.

Those incindiary pigs rout the elephants immediately, LOL. Entertaining.

I ran these tests on medium.

This is the circular argument again.

If someone has elephants they also likely to have a sever disadvantage in numbers.
The defender isnt likely to have an army entirely made of hoplites, are they?

And around and around we go.

Spino, maybe try bringing an oanger with you as a late game solution to Elephants. I tend to bring them with me by default in my armies anyway, as the battles at this stage of the game are usually full stack vs full stack and with all those tightly clumped troops... :)

One dead elephant and they're rampaging for the rest of the game.

I plan on playing the Scipii next game, so no doubt Ill run into plenty of Elephants. I look forward to the challange.

[Red Harvest]

This is the circular argument again.

If someone has elephants they also likely to have a sever disadvantage in numbers.
The defender isnt likely to have an army entirely made of hoplites, are they?

And around and around we go.

That's a very big assumption, and wrong. I've both fielded and faced full stacks that included some elephants. If you want to consider them by their lonesome, fine, but it does not reflect how I have faced them, or used them. It also cedes the point that they are not easily dealt with. You are saying in effect, "OK, you get a half sized army with an elephant unit to compensate."

And yes, I've faced full stack hoplite armies (OK, they had one or two javelins...) In fact the first battle I had against more than a single hoplite unit, was a full stack of Greeks facing my half stack of round shield cav (medium horse). I've already described that slaughter of hoplites. I've also faced more balanced formations, but have not moved into Macedon or Greece proper yet.

[Oleander Ardens]

About the Elephants:

They combine unrivaled shockcapacity against all units - only phalangites can stop a frontal attack - with great mobility. They unite a fear-spread with a almost invulnerability in the first phases of a battle. And this are just the basic typ..

As a battle tool in the hand of a skilled warrior they are simply supreme. Easy to handle and able to turn the tide of the battle very fast. As only phalangites can stop and kill them fast and this only if wellordered and frontally they have to fear almost no normal trooptype or normal weapon.

On the other hand they are rather easy to panic, if one has the right troops;

So I think some fights will be rather mismatched in the MP, as some faction have almost nothing to do so..


@Harvest: Good phalangites killed and routed in my tests the Elephants almost instantly, with very little casualites even on very hard - I will try to make some more scientific tests soon. But as a skilled player might use them on the flanks, and as the phalanx requires more Micro as the Elephants making them amok should be far easier...

Cheers

OA

[Red Harvest]

Elephants in action:

I did some aggressive stuff with base level elephants last night. To see how durable these guys really are...all on "very hard."

Battle 1: The Brutii attempt to relieve a siege. They came at me with onagers and an army that was half triarii, and half principes/hastati. The onager gets the opening shot...killing two elephants waiting for orders (more kiddie entertainment units I guess.) So I sent cav around and knocked the onagers out. As the Brutii closed I shot up some early units with balearics and waited for the main body. At that point I sent in my now depleted single unit of elephants and cav. The elephants trampled through several triarii units, and hastati and principes. They caused the generals cav unit to rout. The cav following behind mopped up the mess and caused the now disorganized masses (from the elephant charge) to melt. I did have one unit of cav on a flank badly handled by triarii--I was busy with the action in the middle, so the triarii charged the isolated stationary cav, still the cav fought quite awhile before routing and inflicted quite a few casualties.

Battle 2: A unit with 10 elephants is present to allow me to knock down the wooden gates of an Egyptian city. This is in the desert, so the rest of my army waits patiently while I set the elephants loose. On the other side of the gate are a unit of chariot archers, and a unit of nile spearmen in phalanx. Two units of axemen also wait nearby. The elephants take no casualties knocking down the gate, so I charge them into the pikemen were they take a loss or two, and then toward the chariots in the corner. Medium cav is rushed in behind the pachys and the pikes rout. The elephants and horses rout the chariots. Now for the axemen attacking my cav, I turn around elephants and charge. The first axe unit routs, but the elephants are tired from the heat and charging. I charge them anyway toward the second axe unit and the elephants finally routed--depleted from 10 to 7 for their efforts (2 of which were "healed" after battle to put them back at 9.)

[Longasc]

Do Phalanx Units really hurt Elephants?

They move slower than turtles, the Elephants can outWALK them.
Good, the Elephants charge into the Phalanx.


Now they should die according to a poster here, impaled on a spear wall.

But hey, even Cavalry can charge into a Phalanx frontally and break it (?)

Elephants can not? -> This would be good, I vote for expanding this feat to Phalanx vs Cavalry as well...

but honestly, until one more poster has not confirmed that Phalanx Units stop Elephants, I do not believe it.

[Red Harvest]

The phalanx do indeed hurt the elephants. Plain vanilla elephants can charge through a base level phalanx though, but not the larger better types of hoplite. They take casualties doing it (unusual for elephants.) And as I meant to say in my original reply to Oleander, those large phalanx with longer spears can completely halt the elephants and/or kill them immediately, just like he said.

As you say, though, the mobility issue means that it is going to be tough to use phalanx as an effective counter.