My apologies, I misread who had the pikeman in question. Yup thats a damned situation.Originally Posted by Spino
Does anyone know what Hard level does to an elephants base stats?
My apologies, I misread who had the pikeman in question. Yup thats a damned situation.Originally Posted by Spino
Does anyone know what Hard level does to an elephants base stats?
Last edited by Praylak; 10-04-2004 at 00:23.
Two units of Triarii can take down one unit of war elephants.
By take down I mean: kill enough of them to make them go Rampant for the rest of the game.
War Elephants cost 2600ish, Triarii ? 700? 800?
Doesnt sound unbalanced to me. Yes they can cause huge devistation, and yes not everyone has Triarii. I've only fought them in multiplayer.
Skirmishers are meant to take down Elephants but I havnt had much success using them at all (in custom tests), mind you I dont take them [skirmishers] in multiplayer games, and havnt encountered any elephants in single player yet.
Ill have to experiment with flaming arrows - but Triarii definately do the job.
One unit of Elephants can ruin your day, but just as easily it can go rampant and make your day.
War Elephants.
Are the powerful? Yes
Were they this powerful in history? Probably more so.
Are they overpowered? For 2600ish - no.
Are they overpowered in single player? Dont know, but changing them in single player would undoubtadly unbalance them in multiplayer.
Last edited by Morindin; 10-04-2004 at 03:21.
Talk is cheap - Supply exceeds Demand.
Well I was referring to the SP game. Haven't tried MP yet. In the wild and varied environment of a SP game no two sides even come close to being equal in value as they do in any given MP game. Therefore a single War Elephant unit (0 Experience, 0 Upgrades) employed against a relatively low tech army can be nearly unstoppable unless you're willing to sacrifice an awful lot of men to take it down. And even then, there's no guarantee that the act of swarming a single unit of elephants with all you got will succeed. It quickly becomes an unrealistic exercise that flies in the face of history and unsettles the rock, paper, scissors balance of the game. This means the AI is doomed against these units because it cannot handle that kind of threat assessment. My problem is that a large number of relatively low tech missile units won't do squat against a single unit of War Elephants, their Armor rating is too high and their Hit Points too numerous for most bow, javelin & sling units to have an effect. I've tested this in numerous custom battles (no timer) and it's ridiculous to watch a single unit of War Elephants completely surrounded by either Peltasts, Archers, Horse Archers or whatever have you and simply sit there completely unphased by the storm of missiles being fired at them.Originally Posted by Morindin
Most skirmisher missiles are worthless against war elephants and most skirmisher units are ill equipped to handle elephants in melee.Skirmishers are meant to take down Elephants but I havnt had much success using them at all (in custom tests), mind you I dont take them [skirmishers] in multiplayer games, and havnt encountered any elephants in single player yet.
Ill have to experiment with flaming arrows - but Triarii definately do the job.
Flaming arrows work pretty well against them but it's a dicey proposition. By the time you get the necessary number of volleys needed to panic the elephants it's probably too late. And it's rare that you have the 'luxury' of facing a single unit of elephants and nothing more. Furthermore, horse archers units can't use flaming arrows.
Absolutely. But my point is just how much do you have to sacrifice to make a single unit go bonkers?One unit of Elephants can ruin your day, but just as easily it can go rampant and make your day.
Historically war elephants were not this powerful. They had a few spectacular successes here and there but for the most part their effect on the battlefield was largely psychological. To think of them as the ancient equivalent of 'tanks' is completely wrong. The countermeasures to them were numerous; light troops (missile and melee variety), lit torches, squealing pigs, flaming pigs, horses' blood (the smell frightened the elephants), and just generally poking them repeatedly with sharp implements until they flipped out and panicked.War Elephants.
Are the powerful? Yes
Were they this powerful in history? Probably more so.
Are they overpowered? For 2600ish - no.
Overpowered for 2600? Well no, I suppose they're worth it. But I'm not talking about denari and dracmas here...![]()
Well unfortunately mods have a nasty tendency to do that...Are they overpowered in single player? Dont know, but changing them in single player would undoubtadly unbalance them in multiplayer.![]()
Last edited by Spino; 10-04-2004 at 15:30.
"Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt
Idealism is masturbation, but unlike real masturbation idealism actually makes one blind. - Fragony
Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)
Spino,
I'm with you.
I don't know why anyone would pay twice as much for War Elephants, when plain vanilla Elephants are all you need. And they walk right over triarii (literally!) I send a single elephant unit crashing into the center headed for the general while I work the wings with cav, and follow up the mess they create with charging cav down the center--the elephants might not cause a route alone, but the cav following them do, and the other cav will have wrecked the wings. The AI taught me this trick...and I believe it is better to give than receive. Hasn't caused me much grief if the elephants rout, as they tend to do so in the center of the enemy formation, LOL.
Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.
After an intensive RTW-experience I'm back again..![]()
Now I made some good test ranges vs Elephants since the demo and I will make a guide soon, but here are some basic points...
Elephant-killers...
Phalanx-units can stop them well - very well, my two German Warbands stop with some relative little losses the Armored Warelephants. They must be well ordered though
The Romans must rely on the Merc. Hoplite instead of the Triarii - this guys are their money well worth against these pesky animals
The Hellenic Phalangites with their longer spears are the bane of them - there is no way one of them makes it through the lines attacking from the front - at least on very heavy on my version in my tests..
More to come soon..
OA
Last edited by Oleander Ardens; 10-04-2004 at 08:19.
Cicero, Pro Milone"Silent enim leges inter arma - For among arms, the laws fall mute"
If the man kills elephants with triarii in MP, he is the man to be listened carefully. Full respect
Oleander,Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens
You are right about the Hellenic Phalangites with longer spears/and or larger units being show stoppers for the elephants. However, I've been able to crash the base level elephants through the 80 man phalangites. They hold up better than the triarii and really slow the beasts down, but the elephants make it through.
The problem with a few hoplites as a counter is twofold: 1. the infantry or cav behind the elephants will likely tip the scales in favor of the beasts. 2. It is not easy to use the hoplites in a mobile fashion to meet elephants frontally.
Those incindiary pigs rout the elephants immediately, LOL. Entertaining.
I ran these tests on medium.
Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.
I've been taking on(and killing) elephants with Hastati in my campaign. This last battle I just put my first two units of Hastati on defensive mode, then when the elephants broke through I brought my other units in using missles/surrounding them. They broke pretty quickly. Out of however many they get on max unit size only like five of them escaped to retreat, so I don't think they're that uber. The only time i've seen them be real killers is when I was stupid and sent my Equites against some elepahnts. Besides for that i've been killing them easily without taking abnormal losses.
I just treat them like I did king/prince cav units in M:TW. They're a threat, but only if left unchecked.
"Every good communist should know political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao tse-Tung
In my campaign a unit of elephants charged my pikemen phalanx. The elephants died the instant they touched the tips of my spears. Hardly overpowered. Normal difficulty.
"Sit now there, and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come to those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shall thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end". -Tolkien
This is the circular argument again.Originally Posted by Red Harvest
If someone has elephants they also likely to have a sever disadvantage in numbers.
The defender isnt likely to have an army entirely made of hoplites, are they?
And around and around we go.
Spino, maybe try bringing an oanger with you as a late game solution to Elephants. I tend to bring them with me by default in my armies anyway, as the battles at this stage of the game are usually full stack vs full stack and with all those tightly clumped troops... :)
One dead elephant and they're rampaging for the rest of the game.
I plan on playing the Scipii next game, so no doubt Ill run into plenty of Elephants. I look forward to the challange.
Last edited by Morindin; 10-05-2004 at 00:07.
Talk is cheap - Supply exceeds Demand.
That's a very big assumption, and wrong. I've both fielded and faced full stacks that included some elephants. If you want to consider them by their lonesome, fine, but it does not reflect how I have faced them, or used them. It also cedes the point that they are not easily dealt with. You are saying in effect, "OK, you get a half sized army with an elephant unit to compensate."Originally Posted by Morindin
And yes, I've faced full stack hoplite armies (OK, they had one or two javelins...) In fact the first battle I had against more than a single hoplite unit, was a full stack of Greeks facing my half stack of round shield cav (medium horse). I've already described that slaughter of hoplites. I've also faced more balanced formations, but have not moved into Macedon or Greece proper yet.
Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.
About the Elephants:
They combine unrivaled shockcapacity against all units - only phalangites can stop a frontal attack - with great mobility. They unite a fear-spread with a almost invulnerability in the first phases of a battle. And this are just the basic typ..
As a battle tool in the hand of a skilled warrior they are simply supreme. Easy to handle and able to turn the tide of the battle very fast. As only phalangites can stop and kill them fast and this only if wellordered and frontally they have to fear almost no normal trooptype or normal weapon.
On the other hand they are rather easy to panic, if one has the right troops;
So I think some fights will be rather mismatched in the MP, as some faction have almost nothing to do so..
@Harvest: Good phalangites killed and routed in my tests the Elephants almost instantly, with very little casualites even on very hard - I will try to make some more scientific tests soon. But as a skilled player might use them on the flanks, and as the phalanx requires more Micro as the Elephants making them amok should be far easier...
Cheers
OA
Cicero, Pro Milone"Silent enim leges inter arma - For among arms, the laws fall mute"
Elephants in action:
I did some aggressive stuff with base level elephants last night. To see how durable these guys really are...all on "very hard."
Battle 1: The Brutii attempt to relieve a siege. They came at me with onagers and an army that was half triarii, and half principes/hastati. The onager gets the opening shot...killing two elephants waiting for orders (more kiddie entertainment units I guess.) So I sent cav around and knocked the onagers out. As the Brutii closed I shot up some early units with balearics and waited for the main body. At that point I sent in my now depleted single unit of elephants and cav. The elephants trampled through several triarii units, and hastati and principes. They caused the generals cav unit to rout. The cav following behind mopped up the mess and caused the now disorganized masses (from the elephant charge) to melt. I did have one unit of cav on a flank badly handled by triarii--I was busy with the action in the middle, so the triarii charged the isolated stationary cav, still the cav fought quite awhile before routing and inflicted quite a few casualties.
Battle 2: A unit with 10 elephants is present to allow me to knock down the wooden gates of an Egyptian city. This is in the desert, so the rest of my army waits patiently while I set the elephants loose. On the other side of the gate are a unit of chariot archers, and a unit of nile spearmen in phalanx. Two units of axemen also wait nearby. The elephants take no casualties knocking down the gate, so I charge them into the pikemen were they take a loss or two, and then toward the chariots in the corner. Medium cav is rushed in behind the pachys and the pikes rout. The elephants and horses rout the chariots. Now for the axemen attacking my cav, I turn around elephants and charge. The first axe unit routs, but the elephants are tired from the heat and charging. I charge them anyway toward the second axe unit and the elephants finally routed--depleted from 10 to 7 for their efforts (2 of which were "healed" after battle to put them back at 9.)
Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.
Do Phalanx Units really hurt Elephants?
They move slower than turtles, the Elephants can outWALK them.
Good, the Elephants charge into the Phalanx.
Now they should die according to a poster here, impaled on a spear wall.
But hey, even Cavalry can charge into a Phalanx frontally and break it (?)
Elephants can not? -> This would be good, I vote for expanding this feat to Phalanx vs Cavalry as well...
but honestly, until one more poster has not confirmed that Phalanx Units stop Elephants, I do not believe it.![]()
The phalanx do indeed hurt the elephants. Plain vanilla elephants can charge through a base level phalanx though, but not the larger better types of hoplite. They take casualties doing it (unusual for elephants.) And as I meant to say in my original reply to Oleander, those large phalanx with longer spears can completely halt the elephants and/or kill them immediately, just like he said.
As you say, though, the mobility issue means that it is going to be tough to use phalanx as an effective counter.
Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.
Which makes perfect sense, after all the Romans after facing Carthagian elephants in sicily got compeltely stomped on, and then avoided fighting them on open ground after that.Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Give any cavalry room to manouver, be it Elephants or normal Cavalry, and you have problems.
Another tactic they used was to create lanes in their formations that would hopefully lure the elephants to take the "easiest" route, which worked.
Perhaps Elephants need to be like war dogs, once you set them lose you dont really have any control over them.
Talk is cheap - Supply exceeds Demand.
Good idea, as long as they aren't auto-replenishing alsoOriginally Posted by Morindin
![]()
![]()
My elephants usually come back to life after battle...no joke. If I get a couple killed, they often are healed after battle. Man these things are a bargain.
Help me, I've been abusing elephants. I guess I need to join Pachyderms Anonymous.
Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.
LOL. At one point I had to use the special command to drop my half unt of elephants. They went crazy right at the beginning of a battle, not sure why. So I had to suicide them cause they were heading straight back toward my group. Strangely enough they were all resurrected for the next battle.Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Bookmarks