I've Fixed Squalor!

[oblivious maximus]

I like squalor.

[TomPaine]

Yeah, actually, I like the general idea of squalor, too. I just didn't like the sense of helplessness before the gameplay mechanic. If you gently modify your files, like I did, so that your skilled administrators get some ability to decrease squalor, I feel like the game might play even better. You might only have a handful -- maybe even only one, and maybe even none -- of faction members who understand engineering, architecture, natural philosophy, and bureaucratic management (just to name the VnVs I gave small, negative squalor effects to) enough to actually begin to reign in a major, squalid city. As such, I think you'll have *more* gameplay options -- which of my major cities do I want to keep clean and ordered? Because I sure don't have enough good governors to keep them *all* squalor free. That way, Alexandria might be a mess, but at least you won't step on anything untoward in Rome. Also, if you keep the bonuses modest, it won't make squalor go away in *any* city; even your well run cities will have some percentage of squalor -- they just won't always hit 95%. I mean, after all, even Rome had the Subura -- I just happen to think that a 30% squalor rating for a mighty roman city, administered by the best civil engineers of time, is perhaps a bit better. But your mileage may vary.

[camulos]

I like the idea of reducing squalor through vices and virtues. Seems a lot more balanced and keeps things challenging rather than reducing it as a whole

[Red Harvest]

Nice work. I agree with you that we seem to be helpless against squalor at the moment and this is an interesting way of doing something about within the game context. I would like to hear what CA has to say about squalor. Is it working like they intended? Are we using the wrong methods to keep it in check? I like the general idea of squalor being modeled, it is the sense of helplessness that is bothersome.

[Orvis Tertia]

I haven't run into problems with squalor yet in my own campaign, but I was under the impression that the public health attribute governed squalor, so buildings such as baths and sewers help vs. squalor, as do some temples. Am I wrong?

[fey]

Public-health buildings can offset squalor, but not reduce it.

I've seen a mention somewhere on the boards that one of the main causes of squalor is rapid creation of buildings in a city. The post claimed that if you just NOT BUILD anything for several turns, squalor will go down substantially.

If true, then squalor is basically a brake on fast development and is there to prevent a faction from getting an impregnable lead in the beginning. I would be wary of messing with squalor for the fear of making the (strategic) game too easy in the middle-to-late stage.

Fey

[TomPaine]

I think you're right, Fey -- we do need to be careful when fiddling with squalor. I'll let you all know how my campaigns play out, and whether everything works for better or for worse. Again, I'm not sure the results will be unbalanced, because I didn't make any enormous changes -- just a few Virtues, like skilled bureaucrat, get a -1 to squalor, and a few ancillaries, such as the doctors, the engineers, the priests related to fertility or population management, and some of the explicitly medical/engineering followers produced from the academies -- and that's it. My hope is that this will provide you with strategic options: enough squalor controlling resources to keep a bare handful of cities well run, while the rest continue along their merry, roach-infested way. Frankly, it feels *conceptually* more balanced even if it's not better balanced for gameplay -- it just felt counter-intuitive that every city, no matter how well run, would end up being a stinking cesspool. Now most still will be, but you could at least make sure somebody picks up after the horses in your capital. But again, I'll let you all know how it works out.

[camulos]

Tom could you post these files for us?