Diplomacy - An Initial Guide

[Tamur]

(09 May 2016 edit) Tamur's hosting site is now offline but he's graciously allowed us to host it here at the Org. --therother

(28 May 2008 edit) This guide has been downloaded nearly 15.000 times from thirty-two different websites over the past four years. I'm definitely grateful for the interest, but do want to let people know that has not been maintained for nearly three years now. Feel free to download and use with the 1.2 patch, but patches beyond that are not covered here.


(14 July 2005 edit) This diplomacy guide has had its first update in quite a long time. Not much, but the Bribe and Protectorate sections have been rewritten to bring them into sync with 1.2.

This is a PDF. Note that it is over 60 pages long, with a filesize to fit (about 330K).

RTWDiplomacy.pdf

You can download the Adobe Acrobat Reader (6.0+ required) at http://www.adobe.com/reader.

[Leet Eriksson]

Good job and very informative! I vote this thread for sticky!

[Thoros of Myr]

Hahah, Tamur your really taking a liking to the diplomacy I see. It's so much better in RTW for sure.

Ceasefires are great for getting huge money, I had Egypt pay me 2100g tribute for 6 turns once on a ceasefire "The mighty Pharaoh has no choice but to accept your insulting offer"

I'm still trying to figure out when/what is best to use with "accept or we will attack", it mostly seems to piss them off to the point where they won't deal with you even with a good diplomat. You can add it to a ceasefire but it tends to damage relations too much. I like to keep them as friendly as possible while milking as much out of them as I can at the same time. I think it has to be a suprise attack on a city and/or something where you clearly have thier faction leader or hier in a dire situation to get them offer serious money or regions.

Some juicy options to try in the Pompey and Caelius Maneuvers...

nice guide!

[RJV]

Document fires up but I then get an empty window....boo hoo

[Adrian II]

Hopefully someone finds it useful.

Very useful indeed. When sticky-time comes around I'm sure this one doesn't only qualify, it's a model for all the other agent stickies. I still don't have the !&$# game, but from what you've written I finally understand what changes have been made from MTW. I'm glad someone finally gave me the whle picture. I gather diplomacy has been vastly improved, really beyond peoples' expectations. The way a diplomat makes a career now (and dies..) plus the number of options for negociations, the way your options are integrated into the strategy map,. the attention to detail such as the return of a Legionary Eagle - it sounds like a real labour of love for which someome at CA has been going out of their way researching, testing and refining. For someone like me who is really put off by the graphics (I still can't help crying for laughter over those phants with funny pants) this is really encouraging, certainly in conjunction with the headhurlers, a detail that could only come up in someone who truly appreciates (as most of us probably do) Monty Python's unforgettable Fish Slapping Dance.

Yeah, for the first time after seeing those goofy screenshots I'm beginning to really look forward to this game.

[SpencerH]

I made the mistake of trying to move an army through an allies land without access rights. The senate sent me a nasty message to get outa there (which I did). Realizing my mistake, I tried to negotiate access rights but I was no longer trusted.

[Basileus]

Very nice work man

[zentuit]

Tamur,
Nice job on the diplomacy guide. It is a great read. I have one other strategy and a response on the Map Information option.
I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information. I offered it and let them counter-offer with an amount. In normal/normal, the offers were from 2000-3100 denarii. These 3 factions really pumped up my coffers and let me storm the Gauls.

Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first). Again this was on normal/normal.

[Tamur]

Hahah, Tamur your really taking a liking to the diplomacy I see. It's so much better in RTW for sure.

Ha, yes! This diplomacy thing has me hooked... after that question you answered I realised I had no idea what I was doing with it, so time to delve and search and experiment.

I'm still trying to figure out when/what is best to use with "accept or we will attack"...

Right, that one needs to be added, though like Become Protectorate, I don't know enough about it to make any meaningful statements. Have no idea myself when it's a good bargaining tool. More research needed

I made the mistake of trying to move an army through an allies land without access rights.

Ah, also need to add items like this. Thanks!


I do wish I could find more information about the conditions under which offers are rejected. Also, factions must have stance values just like the Senate, but how to affect these in ways that you can predict (besides the rather lumpy "If I give them Athens they'll be happier") is still beyond me. I'm sure there's not a 1:1 correspondence between agent actions and faction stance or it wouldn't be real life, but still there have to be some broad guidelines to play by.

Glad it's working for folks. Again, feel free to hit me with info as you run across it.

[Encaitar]

Something I've found is that the AI actually refuses gifts sometimes. The excuse seems to be something along the lines of either 'we can't match that offer' ( I'm not asking you to) or 'we don't trust gifts from you'.

[Tamur]

I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information.

Hadn't tried this, nice!

Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first).

Yes, most of the time this works. I have had Trade Rights rejected (once only) and needed to go back to Map Info exchange first.

Thanks! I'll add all the new info as soon as I can get a break from this job of mine.

[Swoosh So]

I love the diplomacy too!! i remember being in a war withthe thracians and the britons, i was pretty annoyed the britons had attacked one of my frontier towns as they had been long term allies, and both our factions were doing well, so i sent off a diplomat to smooth things over... the reply i got was why should we stop fighting while any of you still live!!! hehe was so insulted i created a wall of steel to hold off the thracians and switched my war effort to the britons. I hit them so hard theyre now paying me tribute over many years ;) I sacked their first 2 towns also enslaving the population for their insults!

[Ldvs]

Very detailed, thanks for the info. It will help shorten the time needed to learn all the tricks of that part of the game.

[Tamur]

Revision up, with much added information, corrections pointed out here and elsewhere, revised Traits/Retinue info, a Diplomatic Disaster section, and a new Diplomatic Strategy -- the Robin Hood Maneuver

[JR-]

very nice, thanks.

[therother]

Excellent guide, very useful indeed!

I have one small quibble though: I've managed to bribe an army without it melting away. I believe the army has to be composed of units you could build yourself, i.e. bribing a Roman army when you are another Roman faction will result in you getting your mitts on the whole army, including any family members and agents.

[Soulflame]

Very nice. It's very detailed and very easily readable. I think even my silly cat can work it out .
Personally, (just started) I love the map exchanges. They usually demand around 5000 for the maps if I offer my maps too, but I can grind it down to 1500-3000 usually. I think it also relates to how much information they have.

One important thing that you might want to add to the guide is that if you get the map information, it's permanent. So if another faction takes over a region which you can see on the map, you see that! Even without units present! For free! (So basically you only need to buy map information for all regions just once.)
However, if the faction you bought the map info off expands into other territories, you don't get those for free (need to buy/trade for map info again).

Maybe I'm a bit unclear, so I'll use an example:
If you buy map info from the Gauls, but Germania takesover a region from the Gauls after you bought the map info, you can see the change in owner on the minimap.
However, if the Gauls expand after you bought the map info, you don't see that.

[Tamur]

Ahha, great, thanks for the clarification. I had wondered especially about the map info remaining as when you bought it, or if it were an ongoing exchange of map info.

I have forgotten twice now to add info about bribing family members... didn't know that about Roman bribery though, that could come in very, very handy, and his without a doubt historically accurate

I'll add and post up a new version sometime before the day is out.

[Murmandamus]

Tamur,
Nice job on the diplomacy guide. It is a great read. I have one other strategy and a response on the Map Information option.
I found that the factions I was close to and neutral with (Germans, Britons, and Spanish) would buy the map information. I offered it and let them counter-offer with an amount. In normal/normal, the offers were from 2000-3100 denarii. These 3 factions really pumped up my coffers and let me storm the Gauls.

Also I was able to negotiate Trade Agreements without any prior contact (no Map Information first). Again this was on normal/normal.

Just played around with this and the deal seems to get sweeter as you keep haggling.

I started off trying for a straight exchange of map info with the Numidians, they kept offering me 2000 for my map info but wouldn't give me theirs. So I offered 1000 denari plus my map info for their map info. They counter was to pay me 2000 denari tribute for 3 turns for my map info which I took. Maybe the more you offer for theirs, the more they will give you for yours?

My guy had 5 influence vs the others 1 and it was on normal difficulty.

[Sjakihata]

Excellent guide, very useful indeed!

I have one small quibble though: I've managed to bribe an army without it melting away. I believe the army has to be composed of units you could build yourself, i.e. bribing a Roman army when you are another Roman faction will result in you getting your mitts on the whole army, including any family members and agents.

when you bribe a normal general (actually captain) it melts away/disbands. when a family member leads the army it becomes yours. nothing to do with which units are in the army AFAIK

[Encaitar]

I just finished a full campaign as the Julii, and I had a diplomat going around bribing Brutii armies to get them out of the way, and every one of them joined my faction, rather than disbanding. None of them was led by a family member, they varied from 1 unit to about a dozen units, and my diplomat wasn't anything special skill-wise. But when bribing enemy armies earlier in the game (from non-Roman factions), I'd found that they would disband unless led by a family member.

[therother]

when you bribe a normal general (actually captain) it melts away/disbands. when a family member leads the army it becomes yours. nothing to do with which units are in the army AFAIK

I think you may well be wrong there. My experience, as well as a few others that I've read, would suggest that the culture of the army (whether led by a family member or a captain) is the crucial factor.

On a similar vein, I just made one of my cities rebel, and I moved a diplomat in to bribe them. Although they didn't accept the bribe - he was a pretty pathetic diplomat - the offer was for the peasant/gladiator army to join my faction in its entirety, and not disband. So it would seem you can bribe and keep your own rebels.

On a side note, bribing would seem to be the only way, as Brutii, that I can get my hands on the more advanced Gladiator units, the Samnite and Mirmillo gladiators, available only to train by the Senate/Julii and Scipii factions respectively. Well according to export_descr_buildings.txt anyway, I'm only still on my first game as Brutii, although I've managed to unlock half a dozen playable factions so far.

If you'll suffer me to wander a little OT, I must say I wasn't too keen on this unlocking business, but I'm warming to it. It does make you feel like you've achieved something, plus you get a good introduction to the faction by whipping its armies and taking its cities. Certainly makes the initial selection a little less daunting and a lot more interesting!

But when bribing enemy armies earlier in the game (from non-Roman factions), I'd found that they would disband unless led by a family member.

Do you mean you took command of the whole army led by the family member? That is not my experience. I've always just got the family member, without any of his men, which is a big problem if you've bribed a city with a different culture!

[Tamur]

More updates up, with a bit of reorganisation, some rewording, about fifteen small and large information additions/corrections, and a new section: How Do I... which is a start on covering the basic questions that are asked about succeeding with diplomats.

Thanks to everyone who's written, PM'd, and posted here with discussions. Lots of great info!

[Tamur]

Although they didn't accept the bribe - he was a pretty pathetic diplomat - the offer was for the peasant/gladiator army to join my faction in its entirety, and not disband.

Really! That is interesting news. I'll have to give this a go.

And yes, you're correct as far as my experience goes: if you bribe a foreign army led by a family member, you only get the family member. So don't do this when the family member is in a city! You'll have an instant revolt on your hands unless you've got a large army in the area.

Also, it's highly amusing to see a Brit chieftan in your Roman family tree, hehe! How unrespectable woad is...

[Sjakihata]

after some testing it appears I was wrong, for that I am sorry.

therother is right, if you bribe a foriegn culture's army with no family members they disband, if there is a family member he joins your cause, the army disbands.

also before you bribe, you can read what will actually join you, this includes units, family members, retinues etc

[Soulflame]

I found that bribing brigand armies is actually pretty nice at start. sure, a commander can earn a star for them, but I'd rather quickly expand my army and go for the real thing - cities. Funny enough, bribing often costs less then making those units yourself (I think its cheaper from a 2 influence diplomat and above, haven't tested it though)

[Encaitar]

therother: you're mostly right, thanks for picking that up. I say 'mostly', I'll explain:
Usually yes, bribing a family member sees him join my faction and his army disband. But occasionally some or all of the army also joins you instead of disbanding.

I think again this depends on the particular units in the army. Units that are 'compatable' with your faction (might only be ones you can train, might include mercs, might include some other units, I'm not sure) can be brought over it seems.

[Ellesthyan]

Only units you can build yourself can be bribed to your side. I've found this out playing the Seleucids: I could bribe from a Parthian stack of horse archers, eastern infantry and one kataphraktoi only the katatanks (who eventually can be recruited). When I bribed a Greek stack, I gained a unit of Militia Hoplites, while the regular hoplites disbanded. That combined with the fact that influence is no matter neither is culture (Parthians have a different culture) in bribing, Im quite sure this is right.

[Ktonos]

Questions:

1. In short campaigns the scenario demands to win 1 or 2 named factions. Whenever I play the named factions are always at war with me nomatter what. Is it default that you'll have to fight them to theend with no possibility to have a nice alliance from the begining etc?

2. Military access with a facrion is in fact a true alliance. But its very hard to achive that. Is it just that you have to offer some large amount of D?

3. My only objection with STW and MTW was the lack of diplomatic options. Every faction would attack at its own descretion nomatter what. The oly diplomatic option was to make alliance or cease fire and those were extremely unstable. Now there are the options, many of them and prety clever too. But the AI gives me the impression of the previous TWs. "I attack you because I want too nomatter if you are an ally or if you can smash me in 2 years.

Some feedback please? I have just played 2 campaigns and this is my first impression. Anyone with more game hours experienced smthng differend?

[therother]

If you plan a new draft, I think you could add in a bit about management of your diplomatic retinue. For instance, having ancillary characters spread across a number of diplomats is generally not such a good idea. IMO it's better to concentrate them. For instance, combining a Rhetorician (+2), a foreign dignitary/hostage (+1), and a linguist/translator (+2), can turn even the most ordinary diplomat in one whose "counsel is listened to with respect". And if you have diplomat who was born with the Diplomatic Genius trait, he speaks with the "force of law for many people". And this is before he get any merited traits!

The better you can make the new diplomat, I believe the greater the chance he has of developing to Expert Diplomat (+5) and I suppose even the double edged Foreign Tastes line.

(The "/" is there because I believe these characters are mutually exclusive, which makes sense I suppose.)

It also makes sense to transfer ancillary characters from aged diplomats who are about to die to younger diplomats. This should give you an elite cadre of highly skilled, forceful, virtually impossible to assassinate, diplomats who can negotiate just about anything from your allies and enemies alike!

Also, in Appendix A, you’ve missed a number of the possible retinue members and traits. These are contained in the export_descr_ancillaries.txt and export_descr_character_traits.txt respectively in the home/data directory. It's usually best to search for negotiation to find the entries.

Anyway, FYI, here's a list of the all the diplomat affecting traits/characters that I found:

Characters:

Foreign hostage, (+1) excludes Foreign Dignitary
Foreign dignitary (+1) excludes Foreign Hostage
Linguist (+2) excludes Translator
Rhetorician (+2) excluded Culture: Barbarian[*]
Translator (+2) excludes Linguist

[*] Poor barbarians, seems they can't get their brains around Greek!

Traits:

The Natural ability line:

Diplomatic Talent (+1)
Natural Born Diplomat (+2)
Diplomatic Genius (+3)

I don't think they can be improved. It's, well, what they are born with!

The Good Diplomat line:

Tactful (+1) Threshold 1
Courteous (+2) Threshold 2
Diplomatic (+3) Threshold 4
Polished Diplomat (+4) Threshold 8
Expert Diplomat (+5) Threshold 16

The bad diplomat range:

Tactless (-1) Threshold 2
Discourteous (-2) Threshold 4
Undiplomatic (-3) Threshold 8

The Foreign Tastes line, which seems to only affect Romans:

Foreign Interests +1 negotiation, -5 popular standing, Threshold 3
Dresses Like A Foreigner +2 negotiation, -10 popular standing, Threshold 4
Vulgar Foreign Tastes +3 negotiation, -15 popular standing, Threshold 5
Awful Foreign Affectation +4 negotiation, -20 popular standing, Threshold 8

I think that’s them all. I wrote a short Perl script to extract them, but it I may have made a mistake. It's a while since I've written one! I suppose "threshold" just means the net success of his missions, i.e. 8 successful missions, without a disaster of some sort, will get you the Polished Diplomat, but that’s just speculation. I've never got a bad trait for my diplomats, but I've seen the AI with one. How he got it, I can't say.

About the bribing system, I think that Ellesthyan is right in the main. Still not sure about specialist units (such as the various Gladiators or the Germanic Screeching women) or indeed mercenaries. My guess would be no for the first and probably for the second.