Anyone Tried Carrahae?

**son of spam** · 10-02-2004, 16:23

I did...and I got my butt handed to me...twice...

The battle was Carrahae (sp?) and I have no idea how you are supposed to win. This was only on Hard!

The first time I didn't take my legions out of testuedo in time, so the catas charged and I soon see a nice big screen saying "crushing defeat".

The next time, I put my legionaires four deep, and also chased some Eastern Cav with my own cav. I beat the cata charge and routed the catas, but then the generals of both sides charged. I managed to kill both gens too, but at that point I had maybe 65 legionaires total, and around 21 cav. They still had a full complement of 4-5 50 man units of eastern cav, and proceeded to shoot up my remaining legionaires with arrows. I couldn't catch the damn cav with my own cav, and slowly got killed by the arrows.

Can anyone figure out a way to beat this battle? Unless CA just wanted you to see a nice big Roman slaughter...

**hoof** · 10-02-2004, 21:09

Keep in mind that on "Hard", the AI troops get bonuses. Thus two units of equal type, weapons/armor bonuses and valour will not be equal on the field (the AI unit will usually kill many many more of your guys than your guys would).

To see this for yourself, take a unit type, and set up a custom battle. Give the AI and yourself the same unit (pick a faction for the AI that has that unit of course). In the combat, simply tell your unit to attack the other (no flanking or other tactics). Watch the results. On medium, about equal numbers on each side die and it's a tossup as to who routs first. On hard you will lose 9 times out of 10, and lost twice as many units before your troops break (at least in my tests).

If you want a fair fight, don't fight "hard" battles. I have no idea if the AI's tactics are different on the higher difficulty levels. My preference would be to separate tactical AI from unit stats boosts. I want to play against the best tactical AI possible, but with equal troop stats (for otherwise identical units).

Try the battle again at Medium. If the battle was tuned to be very difficult (but not impossible) on Medium, then you're very unlikely to win on Hard except through luck (or figuring out some tactic that gives you a huge edge).

**Spino** · 10-02-2004, 22:02

Originally Posted by hoof

Keep in mind that on "Hard", the AI troops get bonuses. Thus two units of equal type, weapons/armor bonuses and valour will not be equal on the field (the AI unit will usually kill many many more of your guys than your guys would).

To see this for yourself, take a unit type, and set up a custom battle. Give the AI and yourself the same unit (pick a faction for the AI that has that unit of course). In the combat, simply tell your unit to attack the other (no flanking or other tactics). Watch the results. On medium, about equal numbers on each side die and it's a tossup as to who routs first. On hard you will lose 9 times out of 10, and lost twice as many units before your troops break (at least in my tests).

If you want a fair fight, don't fight "hard" battles. I have no idea if the AI's tactics are different on the higher difficulty levels. My preference would be to separate tactical AI from unit stats boosts. I want to play against the best tactical AI possible, but with equal troop stats (for otherwise identical units).

Try the battle again at Medium. If the battle was tuned to be very difficult (but not impossible) on Medium, then you're very unlikely to win on Hard except through luck (or figuring out some tactic that gives you a huge edge).

If Rome's 'Hard' difficulty is anything like Medieval's then the AI is at it's best intelligence wise and only receives a small morale boost for its troops. If Rome's 'Very Hard' level is equal to Medieval's 'Expert' the the AI receives a substantial morale boost for its troops.

**hoof** · 10-03-2004, 00:08

I don't think it works that way for RTW. In my experience, AI troops simply kill faster (or die slower) than yours at the harder battle difficulties. Unless morale helps in killing/staying alive, there's more going on than simply morale. Since my tests were one unit vs one unit, the battle ends when one unit "breaks", eliminating morale from the pre-break kill level.

A few experiments (all battles fought until 1 side routs, large battle, syrian flats during winter, no weather):

first number is my troops left at rout time, second is theirs, lower number always represents the loser

Hastati vs Hastati:

easy level:
(the AI never threw pila on easy, but my troops did)
61/10
65/32
60/13
66/15
62/14

medium:
35/6
13/21
13/54 (my general died early)
18/2
5/22

hard:
6/41
5/52
2/39
3/52
4/48

very hard:
(on very hard, my troops broke and ran much earlier than on hard, which is why there are more of them left at rout time)
17/64
11/57
18/58
11/66
24/61

As you can see, Hastati vs Hastati, all else being equal, the difficulty level does appear to dramatically affect killing ability. I'm going to try hoplites next, as their style of combat is very different.

As it stands now, you cannot expect your troops to hold their own vs equal enemy types. If that is how you like to play, that's great, but especially since Generals no longer improve unit killing/surviving ability, I don't like the fact that a unit of AI hastati might be really a unit of AI principles or heavier stats-wise on hard or very hard. I want to fight the best AI tactics, but on equal terms, unit wise. Why couldn't CA have stuck with MTW's model of leaving the stats the same, but increasing morale?

**hoof** · 10-03-2004, 00:39

A note to the stats above: The Hastati unit had 80 men plus one general on the side.

Ok, testing phalanx vs phalanx was a bad idea (due to their sideways creep behavior and their exceedingly slow kill rate phalanx vs phalanx head-on). So I tried Cataphracts (the regular horse type).

Again the first number is my guys left, the second is the AI's, and each side starts with 54 horsemen.

Easy:
45/11
44/12
42/8
47/12
47/18

Medium:
30/20
27/18
5/29
1/18
24/11

Hard:
1/32
16/52
3/45
18/50
15/48

Very Hard:
(again, like with the Hastati, my men broke much quicker than on Medium)
22/47
19/49
20/50
19/47
17/48

I think people don't really understand how much of an edge Hard gives the AI in combat. Maybe MTW spoiled us, but I think a lot of the frustration going on is due to the artificial combat bonuses the AI troops get.

**Sjakihata** · 10-03-2004, 00:54

so changing the tactical AI does not improve the tactics the use over medium, but merely increase their stats? If so, I will be fighting on medium (tactical) and very hard (strategic), untill I discover that the AI is receiving money bonuses.

I want equal terms but hard tactics/clever strategic moves.