How to use Phalanx units?

[Basileus]

Ok give me your opinions guys, Ive tryed several ways some seem to work some not. Ive had armored hoplites rout from frontal attacks by velites ive had phalanx formations collapse from front attacks by equites(roman cavalary) seems preety odd. Could it be the difficlty very/very hard

[LittleRaven]

Ok give me your opinions guys, Ive tryed several ways some seem to work some not. Ive had armored hoplites rout from frontal attacks by velites ive had phalanx formations collapse from front attacks by equites(roman cavalary) seems preety odd. Could it be the difficlty very/very hard

Very hard makes a big differece. Your guys are real pansies on Very Hard. They'll run from a petunia patch if it so much as looks at them funny.

That said...in my experience, as long as whatever they are trying to kill is right in front of them, phalanxes work splendidly. They don't actually kill very quickly, but the enemy simply cannot reach them and so they suffer virtually no casualties.

Unfortunately, it is very, very difficult to keep something right in front of them unless you're fighting in a city. They turn very, very slowly. Even infantry can flank them pretty easily. Cavalry don't even have to try.

[hoof]

Yes! The difficulty is the problem! Here are the results from a test I ran for another thread:


----
A few experiments (all battles fought until 1 side routs, large battle, syrian flats during winter, no weather):

first number is my troops left at rout time, second is theirs, lower number always represents the loser

Hastati vs Hastati:

easy level:
(the AI never threw pila on easy, but my troops did)
61/10
65/32
60/13
66/15
62/14

medium:
35/6
13/21
13/54 (my general died early)
18/2
5/22

hard:
6/41
5/52
2/39
3/52
4/48

very hard:
(on very hard, my troops broke and ran much earlier than on hard, which is why there are more of them left at rout time)
17/64
11/57
18/58
11/66
24/61

Next I tried Cataphracts (the regular horse type).

Again the first number is my guys left, the second is the AI's, and each side starts with 54 horsemen.

Easy:
45/11
44/12
42/8
47/12
47/18

Medium:
30/20
27/18
5/29
1/18
24/11

Hard:
1/32
16/52
3/45
18/50
15/48

Very Hard:
(again, like with the Hastati, my men broke much quicker than on Medium)
22/47
19/49
20/50
19/47
17/48
-----

As you can see, the AI gets a huge bonus to combat in the hard/very hard level. In fact, the event that made me go research this in the first place was playing the Seleucid empire, and having the AI walk right through my spearwalls like they didn't exist. If you want a fair fight (unit vs unit that is), you're forced to play Medium, with any resultant tactical AI deficiencies that brings in.

Difficulty levels work differently in RTW than MTW/STW it seems.

[Praylak]

Could it be the difficlty very/very hard

You got it bro.

On Veryhard, those Roman Cavalry are like elephants on steriods and speed.

Realiticly I just don't see how a frontal charge of Cavalry can get through 15 feet of pikes. How do horses avoid being impaled?

[Praylak]

Look at the difference from medium to hard. Holy krack!

medium:
35/6
13/21
13/54 (my general died early)
18/2
5/22

hard:
6/41
5/52
2/39
3/52
4/48

Difficulty levels work differently in RTW than MTW/STW it seems.

[Red Harvest]

I disagree on attributing this to the play level. Sure it adds to the problem, but I haven't had any trouble taking out phalangites with light/medium cav either...and in that case it is "super AI phalanx" against not so super human controlled cav. They have no staying power, against even slight flanking. Units die too quickly, and rout too easily--particularly infantry.

I'm going to being putting the Sacred Band Infantry into action this afternoon vs. the Brutii, we'll see how they do. The Poeni phalangites take a beating vs. hastati and principes on very hard, all frontal. Not a surprise as the demo showed that the Roman infantry easily penetrate the spear "wall." The Poeni unit should be about twice its current size to present proper facing. A phalanx should not take many casualties until it is tired out, or flanked or routed. It's failure was inflexibility. If it held together and wasn't flanked, it would not be beaten unless exhausted.

[andrewt]

It's too easy breaking the phalanx in this game. I know cav charge is grossly overpowered but they could actually break really tight formations, even phalanx formations. The trick is to charge 2-3 units of cavalry. The first one gets stopped by the phalanx but the next ones disrupt the formations and break through.

[DisruptorX]

The phalanx stands still and holds the center, while the cataphract archers pick off the enemy. I have yet to lose with this tactic. The flanks are protected, and the computer simply does not cicle all the way round to the back, though I have done this with a full circle before.

[Basileus]

Well i did some tests my self and the difficulty makes the diffrence a huge one aswell, i guess i´ll go down to hard instead cause it sucks to see your Armored Hoplites get trashed by velites heh.

[Mr. Juice]

If only you could enable hard tactics with medium unit statistics....

[Thoros of Myr]

Armenia's combination of phalanx and horse archers is one of the most deadly in the game.

[Praylak]

If only you could enable hard tactics with medium unit statistics....

Thats the whole point in the difficulty level above medium. It's made more difficult by taking the average stat for any given unit and increasing to a degree that it no longer reflects its true value. Now the unit in question is no longer a typical cavalry unit or typical infantry unit, it is a SUPER unit.

Nothing goes through a Phalanx. Nothing ever did, never will. Flank it, sure. Shoot it, that works too. On default, the game accurately models this.

[Steppe Merc]

Indeed, I'm going to try out Armenia now... but I though they just had heavy spears, not actual phanlaxs...

[Basileus]

Well Armenias Heavy inf can preform phalanx but it will lose against good pontic or selucid phalanx.

[Morindin]

I seriously think a lot of the "issues" people have with this game might be tied to difficulty level.

I have charged Macedonian Phalanx's with Roman cavalry a few times and your horses die like the Phalanx spears have a poisoned tip. Ive seen horses jump into the formation and before but they dont last long.

On the same account, playing multiplayer (Egyptians vs Numidians - where difficultly doesnt count I guess) I've had a enemy unit of elephants charge straight into a set Pharaohs guard Phalanx and the guard didnt flinch, yet somewhere else another group of Elephants charge into an un-set group and they got flung everywhere like bowling pins.

That same game my Pharaohs guard ripped up heaps of camels and cavalry, and they're hardly the strongest phalanx unit.

[Surprise]

Historically, the greek phalanx was undefeated against frontal assualts...
It's the same in RTW... Don't let any units get behind or on the side of your phalanx and you'll be doing real well.

[Dimeola]

If you notice when they turn they lift their pikes, turn , and lower them. If I understand correctly pike formations were not primary killing tools but were a defensive tool used to `hold` the main line while Cav swept the wings and gave the decisive blow.
D

[Colovion]

If you notice when they turn they lift their pikes, turn , and lower them. If I understand correctly pike formations were not primary killing tools but were a defensive tool used to `hold` the main line while Cav swept the wings and gave the decisive blow.
D

Yeah - but they were a huge meatgrinder of metal sharp thingy's which they didn't really use defensively if they were attacking - it would just close towards the enemy as quick as they could and have the cav advancing alongside, ready to flank. It's not like they just sat there and waited - they would just press forwards, having the bodies behind them pressing those 4-8 rows of pikes forward and gouging anyone in teh way.

Imagine the guy saying: "STOP PUSHING I HAVE SIX DEAD GUYS ON MY PIKE!!!"

[Red Harvest]

Historically, the greek phalanx was undefeated against frontal assualts...
It's the same in RTW... Don't let any units get behind or on the side of your phalanx and you'll be doing real well.

Easier said than done on turbo "normal" game speed.

And even if you do keep them from flanking you can still get odd results: I just had a roman general's cav unit knock out two phalanx side by side...with a head on charge. They had taken about 1/4 casualties getting to the plaza and were winded but were in phalanx formation and resting--they were not exhausted, and I had a 3 star general vs. 2 star one. One sacred band, one poeni infantry--charged frontally by a single heavy cav unit and destroyed. He enveloped both of them from the head on charge. Granted, he was fresh and this was on very hard, and he was faction leader so it was a big unit. But he wasn't taking casualties from charging the spears. He then knocked off a tired Libyan spearman that was coming in to back them up, just for kicks I suppose. And my other non-tired sacred band got whipped by triarii at the wall. They were taking a bit of fire from the towers, but they were not tired and they were backed by other units (while the triarii was alone.)

In the same battle I did wipe out his entire relief force (mostly triarii) with light cavalry though...before the sappers finished their work. The cav really tore up those triarii despite being outnumbered.

Of course the cav was annihilated when they followed otherworldly paths around the walls rather than entering the holes I ordered them in to. This was the worst siege battle I've had.

Back to cav armies...at least now I get Sacred Band cavalry.

[Colovion]

Sounds like a siege that I had which went horribly wrong.

If that's not a show stopper I don't know what is.

At least it stopped the show for me for a while. I dont' play nearly as much after having a few of the bugs really frusterate me. I went and bought Far Cry and am waiting for a patch.

[The_Emperor]

Phalanx units are great (providing of course you don't get flanked).

Last night upon completion of my short Julii campaign, I decided to go for a Greek Cities Campaign... Man it is tough. Besieged right from the word go on Sicily first by Carthage and then By the Scipii.

Taking Corinth from Macedon was a true pleasure and demonstrated to me the true value of the Phalanx as they marched down the narrow streets and mowed down all in their path... It took a very long time to capture the place

You have to be very careful with their use, and always remember to remove them from the Phalanx to be able to move quickly.

[Bob the Insane]

From my confused memories of the weekend (RTW = lack of sleep = )...

Imperial Game as the Julii the first Phalanx I meet is in Cordoba. I had taken the city from the Spanish but it revolted and was full of Libyans ( )...

They had some Phalanx units but I noticed that the AI is a twitchy player and is always moving it's units about, putting them into Phalanx mode and out again so it is hard to determine what mode it was in...

Could it be that the AI miss uses the Phalanx rather than it not working???

[Bhruic]

I used to think that flanking a phalanx was easy. Until twice in a row, my general died from charging an engaged phalanx from the rear. I think the problem is that the phalanx are holding their spears backwards - makes them less effective in the front, but it's great for killing generals.

You know, I didn't like 'jedi' generals, but paper-doll generals aren't much of an improvement.

Bh

[Praylak]

This time around I'm giving the AI more credit. It's got a pretty good grasp how to deal with a Phalanx and it's caught me a few times. I've had Barbarians charge me just as I was changing my facing, thus disrupting the phalanx formation. So it's got it's weakness for sure.

According to an A&E documentary I have about Persian conquest by Alexander, the phalanx was an aggressive formation. ? It states they formed up a solid wall of pikes, and slowly moved forward mowing right through the opposition. Where as Persian fighting style was dominated with a defensive formation of shields and overhand use spears or swords such was at the battle of Issus.

It's a little easier to believe his army is what won all his battles, than to believe he won all his battles because he was Alexander the great. Not knocking him or nothing, but still.

[Akka]

I seriously think a lot of the "issues" people have with this game might be tied to difficulty level.

I have charged Macedonian Phalanx's with Roman cavalry a few times and your horses die like the Phalanx spears have a poisoned tip. Ive seen horses jump into the formation and before but they dont last long.

I agree.

I'm currently playing a Greek Cities game, and when I hear people saying that phalanxes are weak against full-frontal cavalry charge, I wonder if they play the game as I do...

I'm always playing in medium (I hate when there is different rules for a side), and a phalanx is simply a WALL. Cavalry charging phalanx is simply ice that crashes on red-hot metal - it disappears in a blink.

The charge makes some hoplites move, and perhaps even a few being killed, but all the frontline of the cavalry simply evaporate, and the rest is reduced to grinded meat in a span of a few seconds if they don't disengage.

The worst ennemy of the phalanx so far, except being flanked/sourrounded of course, is the roman army with their heavy infantrymen able to come to close contact. If they ever encircle you, you're dead. But even them are totally unable to pierce a phalanx wall.

The only unit that I ever see breaking a phalanx head-on, is a better-armoured/trained phalanx.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Yeah - but they were a huge meatgrinder of metal sharp thingy's which they didn't really use defensively if they were attacking - it would just close towards the enemy as quick as they could and have the cav advancing alongside, ready to flank. It's not like they just sat there and waited - they would just press forwards, having the bodies behind them pressing those 4-8 rows of pikes forward and gouging anyone in teh way.

Imagine the guy saying: "STOP PUSHING I HAVE SIX DEAD GUYS ON MY PIKE!!!"

Preciselly. The Phalanx was used throughout History as an offensive unit (just remember Alexander's battles), not just a defensive one. I guess that if the game doesn't allow the Phalanx to keep their formation with the pikes lowered, mantaining their attacking and defensive bonuses, while walking to attack the enemy, then the game isn't reflecting Historical beahviour correctly.

[Bob the Insane]

A unit that has the Phalanx special ability...

It has long spears which are normally pointed up. Like this they can walk and run...

Hit the Phalanx ability and they lower their spears and get ready.. You can still move them at a walk (same spped as normal) but they can not run....

I have not really experimented but what seems to kill a unit in Phalanx mode is getting the formation mixed up and broken...

[SpencerH]

I've been playing my second campaign (on medium) as the Selucids and have not had any problems with the hoplites. They've been very effective defensively, offensively, and in cities. Game level may be part of it of course. The highest losses my hoplites took was against axmen defending on a steep hill (so I couldnt send chariots to disrupt their formations prior to the spear wall hitting em).

[The_Emperor]

Actually the Phalanx keeps its formation quite well on the move... I ordered a unit of Spartan hoplites to advance in my Greek campaign and they moved quite well going forwards and recieved enemies very well.

The problems arisen when I actually clicked on the enemy to target them. The Phalanx tends to stop and naturally assume a defensive posture and poke the enemy to death.

Maybe someone should try to advance through the enemy with an unbroken solid line of grouped Phalanx troops rather than targeting the enemy and see what happens.

[Basileus]

I agree.

I'm currently playing a Greek Cities game, and when I hear people saying that phalanxes are weak against full-frontal cavalry charge, I wonder if they play the game as I do...

I'm always playing in medium (I hate when there is different rules for a side), and a phalanx is simply a WALL. Cavalry charging phalanx is simply ice that crashes on red-hot metal - it disappears in a blink.

The charge makes some hoplites move, and perhaps even a few being killed, but all the frontline of the cavalry simply evaporate, and the rest is reduced to grinded meat in a span of a few seconds if they don't disengage.

The worst ennemy of the phalanx so far, except being flanked/sourrounded of course, is the roman army with their heavy infantrymen able to come to close contact. If they ever encircle you, you're dead. But even them are totally unable to pierce a phalanx wall.

The only unit that I ever see breaking a phalanx head-on, is a better-armoured/trained phalanx.

Exactly, on medium yes try playing on very hard and you´ll see your phalanx armies collapse from what ever army is charging them heh (almost)