How to use Phalanx units?
Ok give me your opinions guys, Ive tryed several ways some seem to work some not. Ive had armored hoplites rout from frontal attacks by velites ive had phalanx formations collapse from front attacks by equites(roman cavalary) seems preety odd. Could it be the difficlty very/very hard
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
Very hard makes a big differece. Your guys are real pansies on Very Hard. They'll run from a petunia patch if it so much as looks at them funny.Originally Posted by Basileus
That said...in my experience, as long as whatever they are trying to kill is right in front of them, phalanxes work splendidly. They don't actually kill very quickly, but the enemy simply cannot reach them and so they suffer virtually no casualties.
Unfortunately, it is very, very difficult to keep something right in front of them unless you're fighting in a city. They turn very, very slowly. Even infantry can flank them pretty easily. Cavalry don't even have to try.
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
If you notice when they turn they lift their pikes, turn , and lower them. If I understand correctly pike formations were not primary killing tools but were a defensive tool used to `hold` the main line while Cav swept the wings and gave the decisive blow.
D
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
Yeah - but they were a huge meatgrinder of metal sharp thingy's which they didn't really use defensively if they were attacking - it would just close towards the enemy as quick as they could and have the cav advancing alongside, ready to flank. It's not like they just sat there and waited - they would just press forwards, having the bodies behind them pressing those 4-8 rows of pikes forward and gouging anyone in teh way.
Imagine the guy saying: "STOP PUSHING I HAVE SIX DEAD GUYS ON MY PIKE!!!"
robotica erotica
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
Preciselly. The Phalanx was used throughout History as an offensive unit (just remember Alexander's battles), not just a defensive one. I guess that if the game doesn't allow the Phalanx to keep their formation with the pikes lowered, mantaining their attacking and defensive bonuses, while walking to attack the enemy, then the game isn't reflecting Historical beahviour correctly.
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
A unit that has the Phalanx special ability...
It has long spears which are normally pointed up. Like this they can walk and run...
Hit the Phalanx ability and they lower their spears and get ready.. You can still move them at a walk (same spped as normal) but they can not run....
I have not really experimented but what seems to kill a unit in Phalanx mode is getting the formation mixed up and broken...
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
I've been playing my second campaign (on medium) as the Selucids and have not had any problems with the hoplites. They've been very effective defensively, offensively, and in cities. Game level may be part of it of course. The highest losses my hoplites took was against axmen defending on a steep hill (so I couldnt send chariots to disrupt their formations prior to the spear wall hitting em).
E Tenebris Lux
Just one old soldiers opinion.
We need MP games without the oversimplifications required for 'good' AI.
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
Actually the Phalanx keeps its formation quite well on the move... I ordered a unit of Spartan hoplites to advance in my Greek campaign and they moved quite well going forwards and recieved enemies very well.
The problems arisen when I actually clicked on the enemy to target them. The Phalanx tends to stop and naturally assume a defensive posture and poke the enemy to death.
Maybe someone should try to advance through the enemy with an unbroken solid line of grouped Phalanx troops rather than targeting the enemy and see what happens.
Last edited by The_Emperor; 10-04-2004 at 16:08.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it."
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
Yes! The difficulty is the problem! Here are the results from a test I ran for another thread:
----
A few experiments (all battles fought until 1 side routs, large battle, syrian flats during winter, no weather):
first number is my troops left at rout time, second is theirs, lower number always represents the loser
Hastati vs Hastati:
easy level:
(the AI never threw pila on easy, but my troops did)
61/10
65/32
60/13
66/15
62/14
medium:
35/6
13/21
13/54 (my general died early)
18/2
5/22
hard:
6/41
5/52
2/39
3/52
4/48
very hard:
(on very hard, my troops broke and ran much earlier than on hard, which is why there are more of them left at rout time)
17/64
11/57
18/58
11/66
24/61
Next I tried Cataphracts (the regular horse type).
Again the first number is my guys left, the second is the AI's, and each side starts with 54 horsemen.
Easy:
45/11
44/12
42/8
47/12
47/18
Medium:
30/20
27/18
5/29
1/18
24/11
Hard:
1/32
16/52
3/45
18/50
15/48
Very Hard:
(again, like with the Hastati, my men broke much quicker than on Medium)
22/47
19/49
20/50
19/47
17/48
-----
As you can see, the AI gets a huge bonus to combat in the hard/very hard level. In fact, the event that made me go research this in the first place was playing the Seleucid empire, and having the AI walk right through my spearwalls like they didn't exist. If you want a fair fight (unit vs unit that is), you're forced to play Medium, with any resultant tactical AI deficiencies that brings in.
Difficulty levels work differently in RTW than MTW/STW it seems.
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
Look at the difference from medium to hard. Holy krack!
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
I disagree on attributing this to the play level. Sure it adds to the problem, but I haven't had any trouble taking out phalangites with light/medium cav either...and in that case it is "super AI phalanx" against not so super human controlled cav. They have no staying power, against even slight flanking. Units die too quickly, and rout too easily--particularly infantry.
I'm going to being putting the Sacred Band Infantry into action this afternoon vs. the Brutii, we'll see how they do. The Poeni phalangites take a beating vs. hastati and principes on very hard, all frontal. Not a surprise as the demo showed that the Roman infantry easily penetrate the spear "wall." The Poeni unit should be about twice its current size to present proper facing. A phalanx should not take many casualties until it is tired out, or flanked or routed. It's failure was inflexibility. If it held together and wasn't flanked, it would not be beaten unless exhausted.
Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
It's too easy breaking the phalanx in this game. I know cav charge is grossly overpowered but they could actually break really tight formations, even phalanx formations. The trick is to charge 2-3 units of cavalry. The first one gets stopped by the phalanx but the next ones disrupt the formations and break through.
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
The phalanx stands still and holds the center, while the cataphract archers pick off the enemy. I have yet to lose with this tactic. The flanks are protected, and the computer simply does not cicle all the way round to the back, though I have done this with a full circle before.
"Sit now there, and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come to those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shall thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end". -Tolkien
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
Well i did some tests my self and the difficulty makes the diffrence a huge one aswell, i guess i´ll go down to hard instead cause it sucks to see your Armored Hoplites get trashed by velites heh.
Re: How to use Phalanx units?
You got it bro.
On Veryhard, those Roman Cavalry are like elephants on steriods and speed.
Realiticly I just don't see how a frontal charge of Cavalry can get through 15 feet of pikes. How do horses avoid being impaled?
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