Peasants as forced settlers: Loyalty and Squalor effects

[Doug-Thompson]

Just queing peasants units can improve loyalty and decrease squalor. Those peasants can then be moved to cities you depopulated, where they join the general population once you disband them.

This works very well on large unit size, and I presume on huge. One large-unit peasant has 120 men.

The mathematics still need figuring out. There is a threshold. Some turns, you can que one or two peasants and see immediate effects. Others, you can que five or six before seeing a measurable change.

If you click on the full settlment display while you have the recruitment screen up, you can see the effects on loyalty and squalor while you que up.

This is an extremely powerful tool if you conquer Greece and occupy the cities, then take over Asia Minor, wiping out populations all the way. These settlers also allowed me to transform Crete from a barbarian backwater into a prosperous city with 2,000 citizens quickly, just with peasants and nothing but peasants from Greece.

As the Brutii, even the peasants get the faction's Temple of Mars bonuses. It was certainly enough to make the conquest of Crete effortless.

I need to whip up on Thrace and get Byzantium. Then a steady flow of "settlers" can cross Asia Minor with very little ship movement.

Also, the combination of Colesseums with frequent games to offset high taxes can really keep the population under control while settlers can reduce squalor. A city of 12,000 with a population growth of 1 percent produces 120 new citizens, after all.

[JR-]

i thought this was a suggested change to R:TW via a later patch, i wasn't aware that it existed already..........?

[Basileus]

Ive used that aswell on conquering citys where i exterminated the pop, works preety good though it needs a bit of micromanaging aswell.

[Doug-Thompson]

i thought this was a suggested change to R:TW via a later patch, i wasn't aware that it existed already..........?

If you can manage the city, you can do this. I click the option that allows me to manage everything, whether there's a governor or not.

OK. I'm obsessive. Still, it works like a charm for me.

[Dorkus]

Nice find.

Though for those of us playing on normal unit size or smaller (60 men per peasant unit), it's only effective in the early game.

Don't quote me on this, but I don't think the peasants are reducing squalor. Rather, the drain on the population (every unit you queue drops the pop of the city) reduces the squalor. if you drop down below a thousand mark (or actually a 500 mark, since the game rounds up), you'll see squalor drop by 1 (5% order).

So it's not queing peasants but queuing ANY unit that is creating that effect.

Also worth noting that you don't actually have to disband a unit IN the city to get the pop boost. Non-merc disbands are added to the pop of the nearest city.

[Doug-Thompson]

Nice find.

Thanks. I was pretty pleased.

Though for those of us playing on normal unit size or smaller (60 men per peasant unit), it's only effective in the early game.

Come to the Dark Side.

Don't quote me on this, ...

Too late

... but I don't think the peasants are reducing squalor. Rather, the drain on the population (every unit you queue drops the pop of the city) reduces the squalor. if you drop down below a thousand mark (or actually a 500 mark, since the game rounds up), you'll see squalor drop by 1 (5% order).

A-HA! That has the two best features of any hypothysis -- it's probably right and it' can easily be tested.

So it's not queing peasants but queuing ANY unit that is creating that effect.

That's something I knew and should have mentioned. However, no other type of unit is remotely as effective. You get 120 (large size) men in a unit of peasants for 100 dinarii -- less than $1d per man. Also, upkeep is the same $100d.

Also worth noting that you don't actually have to disband a unit IN the city to get the pop boost. Non-merc disbands are added to the pop of the nearest city.

That I did not know.

[PFJ_bejazuz]

nice pointers chaps

i'm off on a few slave raids tonight

'to the mines with that lot ... appart from those cuties ... scrub em down & send em to my tent'

lol

it gets better & better

[Red Harvest]

Nice strategic thought. I always use exterminate now to fix the "differing culture" problem and I have some overpopulated areas...

Has anyone else considered that these new cities would be kind of odd if repopulated by peasant units...a whole lotta men...and few women...and a lot of nervous livestock. I would think the poplulation growth rate would be a bit lower. A "working lady" could make some serious money by setting up shop there.

[Doug-Thompson]

Yes, there have been some good replies on this thread. Thanks, for the replies and the compliments.

Although I realize you're joking, RH, I think we can safely assume that the wives and children are in the camp followers, which aren't represented on the map.

[Red Harvest]

I wasn't completely joking, more like thinking out loud. I'm not sure that the families would travel with the peasant units. Some portion, yes. It's not a big deal, just trying to consider some of the likely side effects.

[Doug-Thompson]

I wasn't completely joking, more like thinking out loud. I'm not sure that the families would travel with the peasant units. Some portion, yes. It's not a big deal, just trying to consider some of the likely side effects.

In that case then, yes, a whole caravan of people followed in the wake of armies: Wives, slaves, cooks, ladies of convenient morals, men of dubious character, merchants, vendors, repairmen, etc., etc. One of the reason we don't know more than we do about ancient logistics is that much of it was done by "third-party vendors" and "free agents."

Soldiers would loot a town and be able to sell clumbersome items to vendors before the smoke cleared in a razed town. Captured inhabitants could be sold into slavery readily, just like the livestock.

In fact, the camp followers of regular soldiers would be bigger than the train of a a bunch of poor souls who were forced into service with little training.

It sounds looney now, but made since back then. It remained true in European armies until well until the 19th century. David Chambers (I think that's the correct name.) wrote an excellent history of the Napoleonic campaigns. He makes note that Napoleon lost precious days after leaving Moscow because the camp followers were carrying so much loot and there were so many of them. Napoleon should have had a couple of days of hard forced-marching just to shake off this burden, the author wrote.

[Don Megel]

That is an exelent idea! I have this one troublesome province that is 2k in the hole each turn.

Lets see, 100d for 60 peasants (I have normal unit size), I could prolly spare 2k for the operation, 1200 people. Hmm, I dont want to put them somewhere else...I hate these people...maybe they should go meet the Dacieans

Weee, thanks!

[Colovion]

Wow, when I suggested this for a future patch I didn't realize it was already in place - good to know.

[Doug-Thompson]

Wow, when I suggested this for a future patch I didn't realize it was already in place - good to know.

I didn't notice it until the full status display for a settlement was up when I decided to disband a unit and I saw something change. Pure accident.

I hate these people...maybe they should go meet the Dacieans

Weee, thanks!

What do you know; There's at least one way to enjoy a crushing defeat.

[Don Megel]

What do you know; There's at least one way to enjoy a crushing defeat.

Defeat? Bah, any thing that ridded me of these troublsome people would be a victory. THey are like the plauge...that would work...the plauge...I just need a unit thats infected...nah, if I do the pesant thing I can watch them die! MaWHAHAHAHA!

[Oleander Ardens]

Hm could this effect be caused by the "population increase" bonus witch you can see sometimes?

BTW a good way to get your heirs to the right city is to move for one turn the "capital" - but it only works with relative calm settlements. So when he would approach manhood the next year move it and he will pop up there.. Still is a very good way to get a governor ASAP to a settlement, hoping that he has at least some influence..

OA

[Lord Ovaat]

So when he would approach manhood

Where were you able to find the age of the "immature" kiddies? I haven't seen them anywhere until the "mature"? It would be handy; used it a lot in MTW.

[Bob the Insane]

Mouse over the kiddie picture in the Family Tree and you get a popup of name and age.... Same for the women too..

[zentuit]

Where were you able to find the age of the "immature" kiddies? I haven't seen them anywhere until the "mature"? It would be handy; used it a lot in MTW.

In the family tree, put your mouse over the kiddie (you may have to right click, don't remember offhand) - it will tell you the age of the boy (or girl). actually it'll tell you the age of anyone.

Lets you know that you may be facing a problem soon if your super popular governor with only one unit of town watch in a city of 15000 on very high tax is 78 years old.

I think boys mature at 16. I believe girls are marriage eligible at 12. At least I think I had one bring home a suitor when she was 12 (the hussy)... maybe 14.

[Doug-Thompson]

That roaming capital idea is an interesting one, OA.

I haven't sent peasants on a kamikaze mission yet. They're too valuable as settlers.

The Senate had me take Palmyra. I did and massacred the town. They still rebelled again. I did another massacre. There wasn't much left.

Now, it's a thriving town.

Also, I had to out-wait the last Selucid king in siege. He was too strong to storm his capital city. The population of the besiged city went down drastically during the siege, then there was a massacre for civil order purposes. It will have to be rebuilt.

Put it this way: On large unit size, 2,400 peasants fit in one army on one ship. Land them and let them march the rest of the way themselves. That force along will meet the population requirements to make a minor town.

[Doug-Thompson]

I need to check on the the culture penalty effects. My impression is that the initial massacre of a town's population leaves a small portion of the population with a culture penalty, and that the new settlers aren't as hard to handle. Distance penalty can still be a killer, though.

[Colovion]

I just used this to populate my Cretian settlement and get the trade there off to a roaring start. Hup huP!