That's it, I'm giving up. Break out the alcohol.

[ElmarkOFear]

Your just not clicking fast enough! :)

[ChaosLord]

Maybe Hoplites are just too weak to begin with? I'm not sure why you're suffering so badly to them. I'm playing my current campaign on hard battles/very hard campaign and haven't noticed my guys being totally useless in combat. Which should say something, since Hastati have been the backbone of my armies. I've only been fighting Carthaginians though, about to wipe out their third king and their faction entirely. But whatever bonuses they get on hard it doesn't seem to be anything that ground breaking, it might be that the Roman factions are overpowered though.

[Colovion]

I'm putting my money on the Roman factions being overpowered

I could be wrong but since they are all attacking me, and only them, I haven't fought anyone else.

[Red Harvest]

Maybe Hoplites are just too weak to begin with? I'm not sure why you're suffering so badly to them. I'm playing my current campaign on hard battles/very hard campaign and haven't noticed my guys being totally useless in combat. Which should say something, since Hastati have been the backbone of my armies. I've only been fighting Carthaginians though, about to wipe out their third king and their faction entirely. But whatever bonuses they get on hard it doesn't seem to be anything that ground breaking, it might be that the Roman factions are overpowered though.

I didn't have much trouble using Romans to whip Carthaginians on very hard/very hard either...except when I ran into 4 units of elephants in a stack, backed by a a fair bit of cav. Took me four armies to subdue them. The Carthaginian infantry is very weak early on. The phalanx units later have problems that all but the highest quality (120 man unit) hoplites seem to share. There are some balance issues that the game speed amplifies, and "very hard" amplifies them yet again. Those 120 man units look awesome though...of course I thought that about the "Scared Band" infantry until I used them in combat on very hard.

[hoof]

I posted this in an earlier thread:

Don't play on Hard if you want a fair fight. Here are some stats from some controlled tests I did:

A few experiments (all battles fought until 1 side routs, large battle, syrian flats during winter, no weather):

first number is my troops left at rout time, second is theirs, lower number always represents the loser

Hastati vs Hastati:

easy level:
(the AI never threw pila on easy, but my troops did)
61/10
65/32
60/13
66/15
62/14

medium:
35/6
13/21
13/54 (my general died early)
18/2
5/22

hard:
6/41
5/52
2/39
3/52
4/48

very hard:
(on very hard, my troops broke and ran much earlier than on hard, which is why there are more of them left at rout time)
17/64
11/57
18/58
11/66
24/61

As you can see, Hastati vs Hastati, all else being equal, the difficulty level does appear to dramatically affect killing ability.

As it stands now, you cannot expect your troops to hold their own vs equal enemy types. If that is how you like to play, that's great, but especially since Generals no longer improve unit killing/surviving ability, I don't like the fact that a unit of AI hastati might be really a unit of AI principles or heavier stats-wise on hard or very hard. I want to fight the best AI tactics, but on equal terms, unit wise. Why couldn't CA have stuck with MTW's model of leaving the stats the same, but increasing morale?

I first noticed this problem when I saw what should be equal/lesser troops walk right through hoplites defending a gateway. Now I know why.


Next I tried Cataphracts (the regular horse type).

Again the first number is my guys left, the second is the AI's, and each side starts with 54 horsemen.

Easy:
45/11
44/12
42/8
47/12
47/18

Medium:
30/20
27/18
5/29
1/18
24/11

Hard:
1/32
16/52
3/45
18/50
15/48

Very Hard:
(again, like with the Hastati, my men broke much quicker than on Medium)
22/47
19/49
20/50
19/47
17/48


I think people don't really understand how much of an edge Hard gives the AI in combat. Maybe MTW spoiled us, but I think a lot of the frustration going on is due to the artificial combat bonuses the AI troops get.

[Longasc]

I share your pain.

Hoplites are among the worst troops, really.

They are cut down by Cavalry, Archers, Roman Infantry. Especially if they are caught from the sides, but upfront, too.


This needs balancing!

Colovion brought up another example how far RTW's battle system is from historical accuracy or playability.

Storming a settlement is hard to control, but CTRL-A just works. I am such a tactical genius...

[Akka]

Not to do the little fanboy, but I'm somehow always astounded to see people who purposedly chose a difficulty level where their units takes big moral penalties and ennemies take big fighting bonuses, who are STILL surprised to see the ennemy rolling over their units

If there is one thing to complain, it's the pathetic AI during battles, that's all. All the rest of the complains I see here are only people who play on hard and wonder why the enemies are hard. This is simply giving the game a bad name on a point where it doesn't deserve it.

[The_Emperor]

Sounds like another example of the AI Cheating to win on higher difficulty levels in a strategy game. I never liked the extra bonuses that the AI got on MTW but at leats it was beatable...

Probably be best to have a Higher campaign map difficulty and a lower battle one.

[Red Harvest]

Not to do the little fanboy, but I'm somehow always astounded to see people who purposedly chose a difficulty level where their units takes big moral penalties and ennemies take big fighting bonuses, who are STILL surprised to see the ennemy rolling over their units

You know, people keep saying this, but they seem to miss the big picture. The hoplites are the weak sisters--higher settings just make it more obvious. Medium cav is tearing up everything (except elephants) on the SAME very hard setting. Does that make it more clear? The medium cav under human command should be hopelessly outmatched on very hard, shouldn't it? They should wet themselves if spears/phalanx are within 50 yards. It is not happening. Those same medium cav are deadly to AI hoplites. The proof of the "your setting is too hard that's all" theory is destroyed by the lack of any corollary evidence to support it--and in fact refute it, because they are the opposite of what one would anticipate.

I fully expect the AI to win 1 vs. 1 same unit match ups handily on very hard, but I do expect *counter* units to at least hold their own, especially the elite versions which should win, but by smaller margins (rather than a complete walkover.)

You can wait a lifetime for good strategic AI, it won't happen. Software companies see no benefit of investing in it to bring it past mediocre. That is why we use "very hard" or "hard" battles. Medium is not challenging.