Which temples for Julii?

[econ21]

Dumb newbie question here, but what is the difference between the temples available for the Julii? I know Ceres helps population growth, but when should you use Bacchus as opposed to Jupiter? They both seem designed to help order, but I'm vague over the details. IIRC, Bacchus does it by making you happy and Jupiter does it half by making you happy and half by making you loyal. When I have order problems in a newly conquered city, Victoria sometimes recommends Bacchus and sometimes Jupiter but I have not worked out which is better when. Thanks for any advice.

PS: I am keeping the Gaul temples that given +1 experience in my troop building towns, is that bad?

[Magraev]

I'd suggest mixing between bacchus and jupiter in order to get both types of priests in your retinues. Dunno what the actual difference is between 10% happiness and 5%+5% happiness and law.

I asked the same question about shrines. The problem is you can't upgrade them. Maybe they also cause the cultural differences to remain? If that's the case they'll have to go. Pretty unhistorical too.

[RJV]

I've gone for Bacchus. No real reason other than I've gone down the 'happiness' route, as I can probably (?) force loyalty onto them later with governors and garrisons.

And I have a feeling that keeping the Gaul shrines might do more harm than good when it comes to cultural re-integration - probably lowering their loyalty to you.

Cheers,

Rob.

[econ21]

I've just done a search on the .com and totalwarcenter forums which has shed a little light.

The pantheons for the temples are different, with Bacchus having a bigger effect on order (+50%) than Jupiter (+35%). At this stage, Jupiter is only better if you want Arcani.

At earlier stages of development, some folk have said Jupiter is better as it may help in reducing corruption. In addition, there is an argument that improving order by happiness raises population growth, which may be undesirable.

So Bacchus may be best for big cities (who will get pantheons) near home (less corruption). Jupiter may be better for managing far away and smaller towns.

I've gone for Ceres in my capital, to race for Imperial palace, and will see how that works out. (I may pull it down later if the squalor becomes insufferable.)

*******************************************************

On the other issue, I'm inclined to keep the +1 experience upgrading Gaulish temples in my few main troop building places until I need the order benefits from upgraded temples. There is talk about effects on culture, but it seems a little vague at this stage.

[Oaty]

Even if you do'nt destrpy there temples the culture difference will go away, where the problem can kick in is when the city grows you ca'nt upgrade it and there may be no way to bring up the happiness other than to destroy it and tech it up for better happiness

[King Azzole]

The best strategy appears to make all temples to ceres until your population gets to 24000 in your citys, then wreck em and make a mix of the other 2. This way you get more population faster, which means better buildings, more money and a bugger troop pool to draw from. Later you can add the happiness buildings when the citys get too big for the temples of ceres to contain all the unrest.

[econ21]

King Azzole, that's what I'm planning to do for my capital - I am dashing for the Marian reforms for which you need only one huge city and loyalty is less of an issue for the capital. The only thing that puts me off Ceres everywhere is what folk are saying about squalor later in the game. Big cities sound a real pain. Call me soft hearted, but there is something just not right about having to exterminate your city populations when they get squalid.

[Sociopsychoactive]

From what I've seen so far, squalor rises faster the faster your population rises. In some cities where I'm nearing the 24000 mark the squalor is crippling, in others it's barely a nuisance because I've kept a slow and steady 1% ish pop growth, and not sent many slaves there. They are still reaching the 24000 mark, none of them have any governers with anti-squalor traits, but the ones that have shot up in population have 70% squalor or worse.

I've found theres only one thing to do when it gets that bad, force a revolt and re-take the city, most of the buildings will be unharmed. For less squalor I just build troops like mad.

[Ulstan]

I build jupiter as the julii, to get that law boost. I think it cuts down on corruption but am not sure. I will try to verify this in my campaign this evening.

Plus, I like the priests of jupiter best out of all the various priests.

[Ii Naomasa]

It may have been sheer coincidence, but a potential word of caution regarding the Temples of Bacchus. All my first couple of towns I built temples to this god because of the happiness boost and since then nearly any family member who hangs out in any of these towns for two years or so usually developes deviant behaviors...extreme drinking problems, becoming a minion, not being safe for man or beast (hey, the minions needs masters, I suppose...), or great combinations of such. While these traits will occasionally appear in other generals sitting in towns of Ceres or Jupiter, it's almost a guarantee for anyone stationed in my Bacchus towns. Given that Bacchus is a god of various pleasures and vices, it doesn't surprise me that it would be related, but as I've said, I can't say with complete certainty that it's the case....

[andrewt]

I did the Ceres to Jupiter switch almost everywhere there's a good size city. I also built up all my initial cities. It's not really that difficult if you have arenas and hippodromes. Just switch to monthly and daily games or races and you have an increase in public order. By the late game, money shouldn't be that much of a problem anyway.

[metatron]

It may have been sheer coincidence, but a potential word of caution regarding the Temples of Bacchus. All my first couple of towns I built temples to this god because of the happiness boost and since then nearly any family member who hangs out in any of these towns for two years or so usually developes deviant behaviors...extreme drinking problems, becoming a minion, not being safe for man or beast (hey, the minions needs masters, I suppose...), or great combinations of such. While these traits will occasionally appear in other generals sitting in towns of Ceres or Jupiter, it's almost a guarantee for anyone stationed in my Bacchus towns. Given that Bacchus is a god of various pleasures and vices, it doesn't surprise me that it would be related, but as I've said, I can't say with complete certainty that it's the case....

The Romans had alot of festivals with Bacchus, that were, uh... Well, you get the picture.

Uh, I'm pretty sure pantheons unlock certain features. Mine, originaly to Neptune have me deceres. I'm not sure of what else.

[Longasc]

Even if you do'nt destrpy there temples the culture difference will go away, where the problem can kick in is when the city grows you ca'nt upgrade it and there may be no way to bring up the happiness other than to destroy it and tech it up for better happiness

I want to correct this a bit:

You CAN upgrade a Shrine of Esus or a Sacred Cave of Abobna into their Roman counterpart when the town grows. Even the boni will change to the Roman ones.

In fact you cannot continue building the foreign temple type, you will replace it by the next level above it of your factions religion.

[Magraev]

I dunno what game you're playing, but I can't upgrade shrines from another culture. You can't upgrade german taverns either (shame - I'd have liked a roman october-fest...)