Attention CA: Trade Disruption Bug!!?

**Soulflame** · 10-06-2004, 13:14

I did some testing as well last night, and found some promising (but also some very awkward) results.

You should go to the trade screen and look how much trade income you COULD get. For instance, at my town of Sardis, this was listed as about 2100, this should match the number which is displayed when you hover over the blinking icons, since hovering over the blinking icons gives you the total of what you have + what you COULD have. Now look at how much trade income you REALLY get (thus the static, icons). This is how much you really get. In my case of Sardis, this was about 1400
Now not down the difference, which in my case was 700. Go back to the detailed screen. There is one (or two combined or three etc) which match this EXACT amount. For me, this was Athens. Thus somehow the trade between Athens and Sardis was blocked.
I checked this with a different town, which revealed that that town had blocked trade with Jerusalem, which again matched to the number.

So I set out with my ships, and saw 2 fleets on the sea route. One was the Macedonians, and the other the Egyptians. Both of which I was Neutral with, but the Macedonians had Athens, so it would be weird if they blocked their own trade. Nevertheless, I couldn't check it, since both fleets were a lot bigger then me. But I suspect the Egyptians of the block (note that on the map there were still tiny whips going from Sardis to Athens, but the trade just didn't occur). Note that neither of the two ports were blockaded

Another strange thing I noticed yesterday is that I had a city which would get a DECREASE in trade income if I upgraded my port into a Shipwright. I honestly have no idea why this is, but I still have to finish the Shipwright and will post results after.

**Jambo** · 10-06-2004, 13:33

Interesting findings Soulflame.

So it would appear that trade income can be blocked either by blockading the port or by a ship sitting on the actual trade lines (marked by movement of the tiny ships)?

With regards to the shipwright, maybe it disrupts trade because it's effectively utilising the port?

**Soulflame** · 10-06-2004, 14:27

Done some more testing...

Checking other towns I'm now 99% sure that the blinking icons are trades which are listed on the detailed trade screen, that somehow don't occur.

The city I mentioned earlier was Pergamum (once I grew bored of Greek Cities, I tried this faction. I like it very much). Now Perganum has a Shipwright, and thus can make 2 sea exports. It has one with Byzantium, and one with Athene. The one with Byzantium gives about 500, and the trade is for textiles, wine and another thing (can't remember). The one with Athene is for about 700 and is for textiles, wine and timber. This one is mysteriously causing the blinking icons. Now checking, Athene does trade (without blinking icons) with Helicarnassus (can't remember which goods), for about 500, and there is a greek boat directly on the sea route. I'm at war with Greece, so you can't block sea trade with boats along the line (contrary what I believed in my last post).
Now I also built the Shipwright in Nicomedia, which I said earlier, should give me a loss, instead of a profit. Indeed, when it was built, I made less money. Looking at the trade screen, I found a shocking finding; When Nicomedia had only a port, it traded for about 700 with Byzantium. Now that the Shipwright was finished, it traded for 700 with Byzantium, and for 500 with Tylis. BUT the trade with Byzantium is BLINKING NOW, thus not happening (and giving me a net 200 loss a turn for building the Shipwright).

Now at first I thought it might be because you are neutral to some factions and allies with other. Tylis was from Thrace, and Byzantium is owned by Macedon. I am neutral to both, but they are at war.. so I figured, maybe the Macedonians don't want to trade with me because I rtade with Thrace too?
That wasn't the case, as Pergamum as I said a bit up, traded with Byzantium and Athens, which were both from Macedon. Then I noticed that both exports from Nicomedia were from Wine. Recalling that Pergamum also exported 2 out of 3 the same goods to 2 cities, I think that's the cause.

My latest guess is that the econmic system is A LOT more complex then we thought, and it also involves trading through countries. So that when I sell wine to Byzantium, Byzantium can trade it to Athens so they don't need me to supply both towns. And since they want the lowest price, they want to deal only with Byzantium.
Building a trade road (or whatever it is called, the small silk road), didn't work (it said incrase in tradable goods, but it doesn't increase the amount of already traded goods it seems).

A question that remains is why Pergamum doesn't simply choose another city to trade with, but instead let's the icons blink for unfinished trade with Athens.

If anyone else can confirm my findings that when you have blinking icons that a) the amount is exactly the same as the sea export of one of the listed cities b) the trade is probably not working because you try to sell your goods to multiple buyers (you are exporting the same good to more then one city).

**SirGrotius** · 10-06-2004, 16:26

Soulflame your analysis, if correct, is brilliant. No offense intended, but I'd be surprised if CA would implement such a layered approach to trade. If your findings are accurate, I think players would benefit from some more detailed graphs or rollovers. Would it be ahistorical to have some information on an foreign faction's trade functions? Maybe spies could offer some of this information if they infilitrate a non-allied faction's city.

**Jambo** · 10-06-2004, 16:46

Man, this whole aspect of trade seems rather convoluted. Why your trade income should decrease when you build a shipwright makes no sense whatsover, especially when a shipwright allows an extra trade route to be established. I wonder what will happen when you get to a dockyard?

Are you sure that Greek ship which you are a war with, isn't in some way blocking the trade route. I know that the route the Greek ship is on is from the city you're trading with to another AI city, but maybe there's a relation in there!?

By the way, how are you able to analyse the whole map and see where the enemy AI ships are, and how can you tell what the AI cities are trading and who they're trading with?

**Soulflame** · 10-06-2004, 17:36

Jambo: Well the question comes down wether the city is an optimum seeking entity or not. If the town the AI has knows that it can get it's goods cheaper from another city to which you are exporting, it might not want to buy from you anymore. On the other hand, your city might not want to sell to the other town anymore, but it seems that it still does.

I'm sure the greeks didn't block it. It was on the sea route from Helicarnassus to Athens, and it was directly on my trade route, but I still got 500 trade money from athens (no blinking icons). I was also at war with Greece, so this is the worst case scenario and I still got trade income. Therefor I think you can only block sea trade by blocking ports.

I can't analyze the whole map, nor see all the ships. However, I can see the trade routes I mentioned, since they are very small and 1 ship can cover the entire trade route in one turn. I don't know which cities trade between them in the AI, that's just speculation. However I can see which cities I trade with, and make assumptions from that (as in, one city trades normally with Athens, the other has the blinking icons, what could be the difference between my two cities etc).

Okay, some more info (I should really go play beyond 244 BC but I keep reloading and testing

)

War definately has an impact on your trade screen, and can dillute it a bit:
If you take the situation I mentioned in my previous post. Pergamum trades with 2 Macedonian cities (Athens and Byzantium). Now if I go to war (I just built a ship and attacked their ship) I trade with two non-Macedonian cities instead. Once again, there are lots of blinking icons, but this time, the total amount mentioned for trade is 1300 (the blinking icons), was unexplained by the trade screen.
Instead, you have to look at the trade screen itself.. there it showed 1000 trade. I had 650 trade (the normal static icons) and when I checked back, one of the two cities I now traded with (my own city Halicarnassus) should give me that exact amount. Checking the two cities, they once again both desire Wine and Textile from Pergamum.
Thus I am really beginning to think that you can sell your goods to only one oversea port (unless they demand different things).

Second, like I said, the blinking icons do not match the trade screen total (even the ones I don't earn). Therefor I think the blinking icons indicate 'the maximum possible income', thus if you are at peace with everyone, have trade-rights with everyone, and no port is blockaded. And have unlimited resources.
I don't know how to affect that last (resources), but it's odd that it would list it as the blinking icons if you could do nothing about them.

So:
*One thing I'm aboslutely positive off is that the non-blinking (static) icons are always the same amount of the trade screen total, minus the amount settlements that don't trade could give.
*I'm not 100% sure, but it seems that you can't trade your goods to 2 cities. Maybe there is a way to negate this (well there should be, otherwise the blinking icons are nice, but other then providing info, are just useless)
*War lowers the chance you get the maximum profit you could earn, and this is represented with blinking icons too.