Squalor

[therother]

For those not enamoured with details, here are my conclusions from a few tests, qualified by the fact that I manipulated the game a little.

Conclusions

• I can confirm, categorically, that the various Temples of Juro (and I suppose other 'growth' temples), and the water supply buildings, both have no effect on squalor itself. Squalor seems to be a factor that is only related to city size, and government building. However, they do counter its effects on public order (via health and culture), whilst farms counter the decrease in growth rate.
• Only the Government buildings and certain Governor traits and ancillary characters, seem to affect the level of squalor, given a constant population. The ancillary characters Geomancer (+1) and Architect (-1) both affect squalor if they are in the governor’s retinue, as well as a number of his traits: alleviators include the Natural Philosophy, Kind Ruler and the Good Builder lines, each varying from 1 to 3 (5 to 15%) in effect depending on the level you reach along those trait lines. The prim and proper trait also affects squalor, reducing it by 1. Traits that add to the problem include the Bad Builder, Miserly, and Cheapskate lines; again their affect is from 5 to 15%, only this time in the wrong direction.
• The growth of squalor appears to be linear, at a rate of approximately 1% per 300 men, assuming you have constructed the appropriate level Government building. EDIT: The situation is slightly more complex than this. See later on.
• You seem to get a fixed penalty if don't construct the available government building, rather than a compounded one, but that requires more in-game testing to be sure.
• I can also confirm the reports of others that the Imperial Palace is indeed the trigger for Old Marius to reform the Legions, as I got to train Legionaries on the first turn! There may be a secondary date trigger as well though.
  

Major Edit:

Tabulated below are the population levels, for each Government building, for each level of squalor:

Sq% 	GH	GV	GP	PCP	IP
5	1150	1500	1500	1500	1500
10	1900	3000	3000	3000	3000
15	2650	4250	4500	4500	4500
20	3400	5000	6000	6000	6000
25	3850	5750	7500	7500	7500
30	4150	6500	9000	9000	9000
35	4200	7250	10500	10500	10500
40	4550	8000	12000	12000	12000
45	N/a	8750	12750	13500	13500
50	4900	9350	13500	15000	15000
55	5250	9500	14250	16500	16500
60	5600	9700	15000	18000	18000
65	5650	10050	15750	19500	19500
70	5950	10250	16500	21000	21000
75	...	10400	17250	22500	22500
80		10750	18000	24000	24000
85		10900	18350	24750	25500
90		11100	18700	25500	27000
95		11450	18750	26250	28500
100		11750	19050	27000	30000	Patch 1.2 Limits P/O here
105		11800	19400	27750	31500
110		12150	19500	28500	33000
115		N/a	19750	29250	34500
120		12500	20100	30000	36000
125		12850	20250	30750	37500
130		13200	20450	31500	39000
135		13250	...	32250	40500
...		...		...	...
250		...		...	61500	Cap for Growth Squalor

Sq%: Public order penalty from squalor. To get the growth penalty, divide by ten.
GH = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's House.
GV = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Villa.
GP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Palace.
PCP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Pro-Consul's Palace.
IP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Imperial Palace.

NB: There is a limit on the amount of disorder that squalor can cause. This seems to be 125%. Growth rate penalty is capped at 25%, which is reached at a population of 61500 (with the Imperial Palace).

See posts further down the thread for explanation of the figures in this table.

End of Major Edit



Methodology

All right, here's what I did:

I started a Brutii game, medium setting. I gave myself a large injection of cash > 1,000,000 denarii. I set all tax rates to normal. Removed both governors from my two cities, and then gave Tarentum a population of 30,000 men from 4,500. I only improved growth buildings (using process_cq), and monitored for squalor.

Immediate effects:

Squalor: 15% > 125%
Growth rate: 2% > -21%
Garrison: 60% > 5%[*]
Taxes: 772>1224 (58.5% increase)
Trade: 238>307 (28% increase)

Constructed: Latifunda, Curia, Pantheon of Juro, and an Arena (for public order, daily games)

Squalor: 100%
Growth rate: -0.5%
Garrison: 5%
Taxes: 1224
Trade: 530

The reduction of squalor came when I constructed the Government buildings, 5% for Pro-Consuls/ 20% for Imperial palace (remember my population is now 30,000)

In my other city, Croton, I did three experiments. In the first one, I increased the population from 4,300 to 30,000, but I then immediately constructed all the growth and water supply buildings. In the 2nd, I did the same, only I then reduced the population back to the 4,300 level and let it grow very rapidly indeed. In the 3rd, I destroyed the water supply buildings and let it grow without them. The idea of the latter two was to study the effects if rapid growth rate with and without water buildings, the first was to gauge any differences between a 30,000-man city with and without adequate water supply.

As with a number of such studies, I'm badly hampered by the intrinsic rounding in the game. For instance, a squalor level of 10% could mean as little as 5.01% (if they round up) or as much as 14.99% if they round down. Even assuming that they round to the nearest 5%, that’s still +/-2.5% either way. This makes it very difficult to determine if the relationship between factors is linear or just slightly non-linear, as that level of error essentially makes observation at the lower end highly suspect.

[*] In another post, I concocted a formula to estimate garrison bonus. Here I can show it working (the garrison was 5 80 man units):

-2.8 + 701*(80*5/4500) = 60%
-2.8 + 701*(80*5/30000) = 6.4%

NB: These calculations only hold true for large units sizes. The game appears to scale the garrison effect according to the average size of the units in the game. So two units of Hastati have the same relatively effect from small to huge unit sizes. Ergo you need to scale appropriately. Multiple the result of the equation by the following factors to get the right result:

• 4 for small
• 2 for normal
• 0.5 for Huge

[Tamur]

Right, I think I've earned my pint this evening...

Ha, that's certainly true! Ingenious methodology there, nice work.

[Doug-Thompson]

Excellent work, therother. Have another pint from me.

So, "happy" buildings (other than the "city hall" buildings you describe") do nothing to curb squalor. They only delay squalor's ill effects.

As I wrote on another forum, the usual formula is an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Maybe the "formula" with squalor is one ounce per ton.

[therother]

Hmm, just starting a more conventional examination of squalor, trying to clarify the relationship between population, squalor and the effect of the 'Town Hall'. I'm still running it, but I thought I should air my preliminary findings/suspicions.

The problem with the previous investigation was that I never studied the development of squalor with anything lower than an Imperial Palace. With the top level of governance, does seem that a 1% squalor increase equates to 300 extra men.

However, it's becoming clear that is not the case for the lower buildings. It seems to me, from the raw data I'm collecting, that the ratio is closer to ~150 men to 1% increase in squalor. I suppose this is what the game means that squalor will go out of control if you don’t upgrade the governor's residence!

There are still some a few questions I have. I'm going to upgrade one of my cities, whilst leaving the other to rot with just the Governor's Villa. Hopefully I can more sharply determine the rates, as there are huge error bars on the gradient at the moment!

PS Cheers Tamur and Doug-Thompson. I was due a Deuchars (obligatory, parochial alcohol reference).

[andrewt]

By 1%, do you mean 1% population growth bonus or 1% public order.

From my observations, squalor goes up faster the lower your base government building is. I'm not sure whether it's because later buildings have a fixed reduction in squalor or increases the population required to add another point of squalor. I'm currently leaning towards the latter.

[therother]

By 1%, do you mean 1% population growth bonus or 1% public order.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to this, "1% squalor increase equates to 300 extra men." By that I mean that you will get another squalor icon, which represents 5%, every 1500 men. But I'm about to expand on that massively, as it seems to be much more complex than that, so watch this space.

Edit: Sorry, I have just got what you meant. I was so engrossed in what I was doing that I just missed what you were saying. I mean 1% public order.

From my observations, squalor goes up faster the lower your base government building is. I'm not sure whether it's because later buildings have a fixed reduction in squalor or increases the population required to add another point of squalor. I'm currently leaning towards the latter.

As am I.

[Inuyasha12]

NOTE: If you want to get architect vice take your general and build several watchtowers and/or forts. He will earn it in no time. I found this out while building watchtowers along my border with one general.

[Red Harvest]

Doesn't "architect" and such come from the academy? I'm not really sure what the building does...I assumed it gave me some nice ancillaries. Some of my really high management, high influence, high star types seem to have no squalor, despite decent populations.

I've wondered if squalor builds on itself? Seem like you should be rewarded for doing early public water works, roads, walls, and city govt upgrades. On the otherhand, if you did them late it should be slow to fall. Squalor begets squalor.

[therother]

Doesn't "architect" and such come from the academy? I'm not really sure what the building does...I assumed it gave me some nice ancillaries. Some of my really high management, high influence, high star types seem to have no squalor, despite decent populations.

AFAICT, academies and beyond make it more likely for ancillaries to show up. They are a requirement for some. But the "trigger" for the architect, according to the export_descr_ancillaries.txt file in home/data is:

Trigger trigger_architect
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted
    Condition SettlementBuildingExists >= proconsuls_palace
          and IsGeneral

    AcquireAncillary architect chance  5

So, if I'm parsing this properly, there is a 5 per cent chance of getting an architect in a settlement that has just build a Pro-Consol's Palace or greater.

If you want to find the ancillaries that do need the various Academies, open up the file above and search for the "academy", "scriptorium", and "ludus_magnus".

I've wondered if squalor builds on itself? Seem like you should be rewarded for doing early public water works, roads, walls, and city govt upgrades. On the otherhand, if you did them late it should be slow to fall. Squalor begets squalor.

You would think so, but I'm beginning to think not. There seems to be set populations at which squalor will increase. More about this in a bit!

[therother]

Right, these are the population levels for various levels of squalor with the Governor's Villa:

Sq%: Public order penalty from squalor. To get the growth penalty, divide by ten.
Pop: the population of the settlement.
Diff: population difference between this squalor level and the last. Iterations are usually 5%, with one exception.
Men/PO%: the number of men it takes to raise the Public Order (PO) penalty due to squalor by 1 per cent.

Sq% 	Pop	Diff	Men/PO%  Comment
5	1500		
10	3000	1500	300	'Normal' population levels
15	4250	1250	250		|
20	5000	750	150		|
25	5750	750	150		V
30	6500	750	150	Should be upgrading now!
35	7250	750	150
40	8000	750	150
45	8750	750	150	Given to here for 'free'
50	9350	600	120	Non-linearity sets in, but only mildly
55	9500	150	30	Here we go, you're really paying now!
60	9700	200	40
65	10050	350	70
70	10250	200	40
75	10400	150	30
80	10750	350	70
85	10900	150	30
90	11100	200	40
95	11450	350	70
100	11750	300	60
105	11800	50	10
110	12150	350	70
115	N/a			Oddly, this doesn't exist.
120	12500	350	35
125	12850	350	70	Growth penalty decouples from order.[*]
130	13200	350	70
135	13250	50	10
...

On so on. I don't think it's particularly worthwhile to go on, you get the idea.

[*] The growth penalty, until this point is a tenth of the public order squalor penalty %, i.e. if squalor takes 2% off your growth rate, it takes 20% of your settlement's loyalty. 125% off loyalty is the hard limit. I put the city up to 50,000 men, and it was still 125%.

[Aelwyn]

I thought that creating buildings that improve public health would decrease the squalor level, but that doesn't seem to help for me. I upgrade the government building right when I get a chance, and the water supply buildings as soon as I can. But it still seems like squalor is always a problem no matter what.

I don't like it. Why don't people just get up and clean something. That would help I think.

[RedKnight]

Very cool, therother. I'll take a harder look sometime when it's not late Friday night and I've been sharing some beers - virtually. One thing perhaps pounded into the ground but which I don't remember seeing is that, AFAIK, when you make a water building, it doesn't show up as affecting the bottom/negative side of the Details, just the positive/top side. Which is to say it only counters squalor, it doesn't directly affect it.

Pray tell - what does 'therother' mean? Sounds like a couple of words jammed together - or is it a British term? Er sorry - I meant a Brittania term.

[therother]

One thing perhaps pounded into the ground but which I don't remember seeing is that, AFAIK, when you make a water building, it doesn't show up as affecting the bottom/negative side of the Details, just the positive/top side. Which is to say it only counters squalor, it doesn't directly affect it.

Indeed. I think, personally, it would make more sense if it did actually directly affect squalor. But it doesn't, or at least I haven't been able to discern any noticeable effect, and I've been looking pretty hard!

I suppose it makes no difference in the end, as the effect of squalor does not seem to be compounded - it increases in predetermined steps based on population and Government building - so it matters little to the squalor level when you build the government buildings: it will drop back to the level, appropriate for your current population, it would have been had you build the new Government building as soon as you could. However, as the table above shows, you start to pay an extra penalty, both in growth rate and public order, for such slovenly practices, and it gets pretty steep.

Pray tell - what does 'therother' mean? Sounds like a couple of words jammed together - or is it a British term? Er sorry - I meant a Brittania term.

It's just an old nickname, and given the relative paucity of nicknames I had as a kid, I didn't have much of a choice when I was deciding on usernames 10+ years ago. So it has kinda stuck with me, especially online.

BTW, it's pronounced "The Rother", not "The R Other" as some seem to think!

[therother]

Right, these are the population levels for various levels of squalor with the Governor's Governor’s Palace:

Headings are the same as before:

Sq% 	Pop	Diff	Men/PO%  Comment
5	1500			
10	3000	1500	300	
15	4500	1500	300	
20	6000	1500	300	Normal Pop Levels
25	7500	1500	300		|
30	9000	1500	300		|
35	10500	1500	300		v
40	12000	1500	300	Can upgrade to Pro-Consul's
45	12750	750	150	
50	13500	750	150	
55	14250	750	150	
60	15000	750	150	
65	15750	750	150	
70	16500	750	150	
75	17250	750	150	
80	18000	750	150	
85	18350	350	70	
90	18700	350	70	
95	18750	50	10	
100	19050	300	60	
105	19400	350	70	
110	19500	100	20	
115	19750	250	50	
120	20100	350	70	
125	20250	150	30	Again, the growth penalty decouples.
130	20450	200	40	
...

[Scipio]

So is anybody gunna mod squaker to be less devastating? It is really starting to piss me off.

[therother]

So is anybody gunna mod squaker to be less devastating? It is really starting to piss me off.

Well, I'm not a hardcore modder, but the only thing I could think of that's easily accessible is to mod the traits, so that ever general who's ever in a settlement is given -10 squalor or so.

I've haven't fully tested this, so if you try backup your files.

Open home/data/export_descr_character_traits.txt, find this entry

   
    Level Great_Builder
        Description Great_Builder_desc
        EffectsDescription Great_Builder_effects_desc
        Epithet Great_Builder_epithet_desc
        Threshold  36 

        Effect Influence  1 
        Effect Construction  15 
        Effect Squalor -3

Change Effect Squalor -3 to whatever you want, and perhaps remove the other effects.

So you could change it to:

    Level Great_Builder
        Description Great_Builder_desc
        EffectsDescription Great_Builder_effects_desc
        Epithet Great_Builder_epithet_desc
        Threshold  36 

        Effect Squalor -10

Then search further down for:

 Trigger governor_building
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition GovernorInResidence

    Affects GoodBuilder  1  Chance  20

Change to:

Trigger governor_building
    WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd

    Condition Condition EndedInSettlement

    Affects GoodBuilder  36  Chance  100

If you want the game to display the right figures, you'll need to edit the appropriate line in home/data/text/export_VnVs.txt

I've had a quick check and it seems to work quite well. A few only get Excellent Builder, but that's better than nothing I suppose. The Great Builder guys put a 80% Public order cap on squalor, even in the largest of large cities, and will eliminate it in all but larger Large cities. It's crude, I know, but hopefully it'll tide you over until one of the modders gets into gear.

Remember to backup those files, and - if RTW's files are anything like MTW's - be sure to put exact the right spaces, tabs, etc in the file. Do one thing at a time, and check that RTW still loads. Run the game with the "-show_err” command for help if you make a mistake. CA says that it should give you more information about what went wrong in the error checking.

Edit: You could also mod a health building, but that would just counter the effect, not reduce squalor itself. I suppose you could mod the health building to actually combat squalor. The advantage of this would be that you could remove the mod without affecting the game, whereas all family members in the game are permanently modified in the mod below. Also squalor could be tackled in all your settlements without the need for family members.

For example, in home/export_descr_buildings.txt:

        sewers requires factions { ct_carthage, egyptian, greek, roman, }  and building_present_min_level market trader
        {
            capability
            {
                population_health_bonus bonus 1
            }
            construction  2 
            cost  800 
            settlement_min large_town
            upgrades
            {
                baths
            }
        }

And edit the population_health_bonus bonus to something larger. You would either want to mod the upgrades or just remember not to build them as it would remove your extra bonus. You might also want to let the other factions in on the scheme.

[Longasc]

good work. I will comment after i understood everything.

[Akka]

Is it possible to mod the game so that squalor only have half the loyalty effect it has right now ?

[CrackedAxe]

I'm just a couple of decades into my Briton campaign, and it concerns me that I cant upgrade the cities here past the minor stage, but the population keeps on growing. Is the squalor going to spiral out of control?

[Dorkus]

Very interesting post.

I believe you're over-complicating garrison effects. however. I'm pretty sure it's just 0.5% pop for 5% order, up to 80% max effect.

Edit: actually it's more like 0.4 or 0.45% pop for 5% order, but at low levels and normal+ unit size, that's pretty much the same thing.

At least that's what I got when i played around with it a while ago. The relationship does seem to be linear, whatever the precise constant and rounding method. I usually multiply pop% by 12, round up at 2.5 increments, and get the right figure.

For those not enamoured with details, here are my conclusions from a few tests, qualified by the fact that I manipulated the game a little.

Conclusions

• I can confirm, categorically, that the various Temples of Juro (and I suppose other 'growth' temples), and the water supply buildings, both have no effect on squalor itself. Squalor seems to be a factor that is only related to city size, and government building. However, they do counter its effects on public order (via health and culture), whilst farms counter the decrease in growth rate.
• Only the Government buildings and certain Governor traits and ancillary characters, seem to affect the level of squalor, given a constant population. The ancillary characters Geomancer (+1) and Architect (-1) both affect squalor if they are in the governor’s retinue, as well as a number of his traits: alleviators include the Natural Philosophy, Kind Ruler and the Good Builder lines, each varying from 1 to 3 (5 to 15%) in effect depending on the level you reach along those trait lines. The prim and proper trait also affects squalor, reducing it by 1. Traits that add to the problem include the Bad Builder, Miserly, and Cheapskate lines; again their affect is from 5 to 15%, only this time in the wrong direction.
• The growth of squalor appears to be linear, at a rate of approximately 1% per 300 men, assuming you have constructed the appropriate level Government building. EDIT: The situation is slightly more complex than this. See later on.
• You seem to get a fixed penalty if don't construct the available government building, rather than a compounded one, but that requires more in-game testing to be sure.
• I can also confirm the reports of others that the Imperial Palace is indeed the trigger for Old Marius to reform the Legions, as I got to train Legionaries on the first turn! There may be a secondary date trigger as well though.
  

Methodology

All right, here's what I did:

I started a Brutii game, medium setting. I gave myself a large injection of cash > 1,000,000 denarii. I set all tax rates to normal. Removed both governors from my two cities, and then gave Tarentum a population of 30,000 men from 4,500. I only improved growth buildings (using process_cq), and monitored for squalor.

Immediate effects:

Squalor: 15% > 125%
Growth rate: 2% > -21%
Garrison: 60% > 5%[*]
Taxes: 772>1224 (58.5% increase)
Trade: 238>307 (28% increase)

Constructed: Latifunda, Curia, Pantheon of Juro, and an Arena (for public order, daily games)

Squalor: 100%
Growth rate: -0.5%
Garrison: 5%
Taxes: 1224
Trade: 530

The reduction of squalor came when I constructed the Government buildings, 5% for Pro-Consuls/ 20% for Imperial palace (remember my population is now 30,000)

In my other city, Croton, I did three experiments. In the first one, I increased the population from 4,300 to 30,000, but I then immediately constructed all the growth and water supply buildings. In the 2nd, I did the same, only I then reduced the population back to the 4,300 level and let it grow very rapidly indeed. In the 3rd, I destroyed the water supply buildings and let it grow without them. The idea of the latter two was to study the effects if rapid growth rate with and without water buildings, the first was to gauge any differences between a 30,000-man city with and without adequate water supply.

As with a number of such studies, I'm badly hampered by the intrinsic rounding in the game. For instance, a squalor level of 10% could mean as little as 5.01% (if they round up) or as much as 14.99% if they round down. Even assuming that they round to the nearest 5%, that’s still +/-2.5% either way. This makes it very difficult to determine if the relationship between factors is linear or just slightly non-linear, as that level of error essentially makes observation at the lower end highly suspect.

[*] In another post, I concocted a formula for garrison bonus. Here I can show it working (the garrison was 5 80 man units):

-2.8 + 701*(80*5/4500) = 60%
-2.8 + 701*(80*5/30000) = 6.4%

Right, I think I've earned my pint this evening...


Major edit

Tabulated below are the population levels, for each Government building, for each level of squalor.

Sq%: Public order penalty from squalor. To get the growth penalty, divide by ten.
GV = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Villa.
GP = Corresponding population level for settlement with the Governor's Palace.

Sq%	GV	GP
5	1500	1500
10	3000	3000
15	4250	4500
20	5000	6000
25	5750	7500
30	6500	9000
35	7250	10500
40	8000	12000
45	8750	12750
50	9350	13500
55	9500	14250
60	9700	15000
65	10050	15750
70	10250	16500
75	10400	17250
80	10750	18000
85	10900	18350
90	11100	18700
95	11450	18750
100	11750	19050
105	11800	19400
110	12150	19500
115	N/a	19750
120	12500	20100
125	12850	20250
130	13200	20450
135	13250
...

NB: There is a limit on the amount of disorder that squalor can cause. This seems to be 125%. I don't believe there is, in any practical sense, a similar limit for the growth rate penalty.

See posts further down the thread for explanation of the figures in this table

[Doug-Thompson]

Does the training of units effect squalor more than it effects the general population?

For instance, I send a bunch of ships that need retraining to a port of a city with lots of squalor. A total of 300 or so "sailors" are taken from the general population.

However, does the squalor go down for 300 population at a fixed rate, or do the people living in squalor "get a job" in the navy, thereby reducing squalor more?

[Dorkus]

Does the training of units effect squalor more than it effects the general population?

For instance, I send a bunch of ships that need retraining to a port of a city with lots of squalor. A total of 300 or so "sailors" are taken from the general population.

However, does the squalor go down for 300 population at a fixed rate, or do the people living in squalor "get a job" in the navy, thereby reducing squalor more?

don't think it makes a difference. pop is pop. note that 300 men will not affect squalor at all (unless you're on the marign), since the game moves in 5% increments.

[therother]

I'm just a couple of decades into my Briton campaign, and it concerns me that I cant upgrade the cities here past the minor stage, but the population keeps on growing. Is the squalor going to spiral out of control?

Barbarians can't upgrade cities beyond minor city status, so can't get a hold of further upgraded farms, growth temples, and the like. Therefore, if CA has done its numbers right, your squalor should start to balance out your growth rate long before you'd reach the 125% Public Order Maximum, by virtue of the growth rate squalor penalties.

Is it possible to mod the game so that squalor only have half the loyalty effect it has right now ?

I don't know of a way. A trait (or building) that has an effect of (+/-) 10 is a 50% effect. However, this doesn't mean a 50% reduction of the current squalor level, but a 50% absolute reduction: it will reduce 10 from the squalor icons in public order calculation, whether you have 10 to subtract or not. Example: You have 80% Public order disruption due to squalor (16 squalor icons appear). You put a governor with -10 squalor in the settlement, and it will go down to 30%, rather than 40%. Further example, you have 20%, and move him in. Squalor will disappear.

I believe you're over-complicating garrison effects. however. I'm pretty sure it's just 0.5% pop for 5% order, up to 80% max effect.

Quite possible. I only graphed a handful of points.

Edit: actually it's more like 0.4 or 0.45% pop for 5% order, but at low levels and normal+ unit size, that's pretty much the same thing.

At least that's what I got when i played around with it a while ago. The relationship does seem to be linear, whatever the precise constant and rounding method. I usually multiply pop% by 12, round up at 2.5 increments, and get the right figure.

Hmm, perhaps I'm not following your method properly? For the example above, we have 400 men in a settlement of 4500. That means the garrison is 8.9% the size of the settlement. It has a 60% garrison bonus reported.

I calculate, by your method, it should be around 100% (~12*9). I did think that it might be the difficulty level, but I started a very hard and an easy campaign game, and in both my formula worked quite well.

To make it a rule of thumb, you should multiple Garrison % (*) by 7 and subtract 2.5 or 3. As you say, the maximum is 80%, and perhaps the minimum is 5%?

(*) [(garrison size/settlement population)*100]

However, does the squalor go down for 300 population at a fixed rate, or do the people living in squalor "get a job" in the navy, thereby reducing squalor more?

Dorkus is right: it doesn't matter how the population changes, the effect on squalor is the same.

[Dorkus]

What example are you referring to?

In my experience, multipying % of pop by 12, then rounding up at units of 2.5 (so if you have 6.1% garrison * 12=73.2 rounded up to 75% order), always gets you within 5% of the actual value.

I haven't tested this rigorously, however. The way I did it originally was I took like 20 units of peasants (at normal unit size) in and out of a huge city and that ratio jumped out.

Since then, I haven't noticed huge deviatinos from that ratio, but then again I haven't paid too close attention, since I generally don't have too many problems with order.

btw, i'm on vh/vh. so the differnece isn't because of my difficulty level.

[therother]

What example are you referring to?

In the middle of the starting post of the thread, the one you've quoted in its entirety, are the following two examples.

-2.8 + 701*(80*5/4500) = 60%
-2.8 + 701*(80*5/30000) = 6.4%

It was comparison of the garrison effect before and after changing the settlement population from 4500 to 30000. The game reported the garrison as 60% to 5%, which was borne out by my calculations above.

[Dorkus]

just pulled out an old save game and used the multiply by 12 method on about 20 provinces ranging from 700 pop to huge city size. Seems to get it right within 5% for all of them.

Are you sure you have the 400/4500 city correct?

[therother]

Are you sure you have the 400/4500 city correct?

100% correct. But I've discovered why we are diverging. It's the unit sizes. You're on normal and I'm on large. The game scales the garrison effect accordingly.

[Dorkus]

100% correct. But I've discovered why we are diverging. It's the unit sizes. You're on normal and I'm on large. The game scales the garrison effect accordingly.

ah of coruse. *bonks head*


ca really shouldn't have done that though. if you get the gain, you should bear the pain.

[therother]

I should point out, if only for completeness, that the relationship between size of the garrison and the settlement population in determining the garrison public order effect is in fact non-linear. Best fit I've had to my data (excluding high order polynomials, of course) is a sum of decaying exponentials, but it's quite complex and not really very useful for a quick calculation of how many men you need to pacify a troublesome settlement, especially as it's quite linear in the normal ranges. The rules of thumb that Dorkus and I detail above should suffice, with the simple proviso (for my rule) that you should scale the figure by the following factors depending on the unit size setting:

• 4 for small
• 2 for normal
• 0.5 for Huge

[therother]

Here's the Imperial Palace data.

Note: I deleted the old post by accident. The data in this one is identical.

Sq% 	Pop	Diff	Men/PO%
5	1500		
10	3000	1500	300
15	4500	1500	300
20	6000	1500	300
25	7500	1500	300
30	9000	1500	300
35	10500	1500	300
40	12000	1500	300
45	13500	1500	300
50	15000	1500	300
55	16500	1500	300
60	18000	1500	300
65	19500	1500	300
70	21000	1500	300
75	22500	1500	300
80	24000	1500	300
85	25500	1500	300
90	27000	1500	300
95	28500	1500	300
100	30000	1500	300
105	31500	1500	300
110	33000	1500	300
115	34500	1500	300
120	36000	1500	300
125	37500	1500	300
130	39000	1500	300
135	40500	1500	300