Chariots vs Horses = BULLLLLL SHEEEEET

[Soulflame]

That's very true. But the riders had metal straps that hung them onto the horse and the chariot.

[joke]Wow, so the Egyptians invented the first G-force simulator to train their units on the chariots how to deal with them? [/joke]

Well, last night I faced the dreaded chariot archers again. To my surprise, my own scythed chariots (which were only 6 per unit, versus 12 per unit chariot archers), kept them busy and even destroyed an entire unit of chariot archers before being ridden down by the other one.

What was more amazing was that my light cavalry rode into a unit of archers, killed about 30 of the 120, got stuck, and were being killed by those archers at fast pace... I got them out and half of my cavalry survived, but this surprosed me a lot.
It's not really the fact that they get bogged down (because in all reason they should), but usually a group of archers would rout when losing 30 men in one blow (since it's usually almost half of their men), but because there are 120 archers in the Egyptian unit, they weren't even shaken I think .

Anyway, my first chariot archers as Pontus are now done, so I'm gonna see if I can 'exploit' them as well .

[Sethik]

I found that chariots get the crap kicked out of them in woods and arn't that fast. I was playing the Brits and had several chariot units attacking 2 warbands (I think one was swordsmen) in a heavily wooded area. The trees messed up their formation so bad that they rode into the bastards one at a time.


Also I had two Scythe chariots chase an enemy general around the map. The only way I was finally able to get was the really intiutive AI pathfinding (which does have its quirks). My chariots were chasing him around the edges of the map, and one chariot broke off and circled around when the general was aobut to turn at the corner. He was hit and slaughtered by my two Scythes.

Could it be that when you play on hard/very hard the chariots get bonuses to your troops?

[cegman]

I think that the egyptian chariots are different from the british chariots.

[DisruptorX]

Its not the British Chariots that are over-powered, its the Egyptians.

[Sethik]

I figured you guys meant all chairots were overpowered.

Note: The Scythe Chairots are from my Seluciud campaign.

[DisruptorX]

I figured you guys meant all chairots were overpowered.

Note: The Scythe Chairots are from my Seluciud campaign.

With the combat speed mod on, chariots die like flies to hoplites, but the chariot archers are simply too fast and manoeverable, it looks dumb, and is aggravating.

I haven't founght against british chariots, but I used some, and they lost in a straight up fight after charging light infantry, so I don't think they are overpowered.

[Bob the Insane]

DisruptorX, I think I need to blame you for the destruction of half of the ruling family in my Egyptian game...

Chariots are uber eh, I thought... Well lets see, I thought...

Charged a load of the in in a fight against rebels in the desert... Yes we won, and yes the chariots did a lot of damage...

But even general on the field fell in the fighting...

[Sleepy]

I haven't founght against british chariots, but I used some, and they lost in a straight up fight after charging light infantry, so I don't think they are overpowered.

I have, though after reading this thread and a few others when I saw the Britons had chariots my heart sank. So I sat on top of a hill (so MTW) and waited. They made quick work of my cavalry auxillia (sp) but when they got into range of my archers they died. Also in HTH they weren't over powerful.

So they aren't uberpowerful, much to my relief as I have just launched my armies at the Britons continental holdings

[Grifman]

I posted this elsewhere in another thread but it's relevant in this one :)

Chariots are powerful, but you have to know how to counter them. I have no problem defeating the Egyptians, even numbers, even outnumbered, battle after battle in the game (unless you are talking MP, that's not my issue). You just have to come to battle with the right stuff. Of course chariots are going to tear up armored hoplites - the hoplites can't get close enough to even smell them, much less touch them with those long pointy spears. Don't come crying that your hoplites are dying any more than Crassus cried at Carrhae at what Parthian horsearchers did to him :) The game calls them missile cavalry and for all practical purposes that's what they are. So you have to fight them as that. For the Romans against the Egyptians, that means having artillery and archers. My Roman armies fighting the Egyptians who bring alot of ranged units to battle always have two onagers, and at least 4, maybe 6 archers.

I've found that chariots die easily under archer fire. Put two auxila archers units firing on a chariot unit and it dies quickly - they just don't last long. There aren't alot of men in a chariot unit and they die like flies under archer fire. I concentrate fire on them first and take them out. Meanwhile my artillery is pounding the desert axemen who have to advance slowly on foot. And when the chariots are dead, my archers turn their attentions on them.

On medium, I routinely inflict losses on the Egyptian in a ration of between 5 to 1 and 10 to 1 in my favor. Best was 1260 Egyptians dead vs my 60. The Egyptians are pushovers if you combine units and tactics correctly.

Grifman

[King Azzole]

I dont care what you say, its BS when they can knock out 20 ARMORED hoplites in phalanx formation with one volley, and run down an entire phalanx and route em when in Phalanx as well. Its not generalship, trust me I am a very good general and can beat practically any army attacking me with minimal units. Its simply BS. Also , I just had 3 WAR ELEPHANTS killed by these ARCHER chariots. 1 of the elephants killed WHILE they were routing............

[DisruptorX]

I just played against the egyptains today, and man, what a load of crap.
In narrow streets, they are unbeatable, because they can weave and turn, while you can't get away. Yes, you read that right, weave and turn. Chariots can not only move through solid matter, but also teleport, and turn on a dime.

Here's a classic picture of the way that chariots are constantly moving around like ants.


Here's a detail, where you can clearly see several chariots inside of each other.


Chariots are devastating in cities and against phalanxes, which is so bogus, I don't know where to begin.

[andrewt]

The thing that most doesn't make sense is that their melee is because of their scythes. That means they should damage friendly units as well.

[Soulflame]

Check this thread out: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37710
Apparently, those chariots have the same mass (and some few even more!) then elephants. And yet amazingly they are still as fast as cavalry and turn crazy fast.
Perhaps if this is modded, the chariots will be better... let's hope so.

[LordKhaine]

I was kind of confused at this thread until I got to the second page. Having only faced British chariots I viewed them as pretty fun, potentially lethal but usually not battle deciding and certainly not overpowered. Now I'm kind of scared to face Egypt!

[Red Harvest]

Wow, same mass as elephants with high speed and archery to boot. Not to mention they get multiple hit points.

[solypsist]

I've run over my own men, seen them fall down and disappear, and yet they don;t register as casualties when the battle is over (same with the unit heal) - one unit that was half mowed down by my general's chariot unit remained at full strength at the end of the fight!

chariots are teh hot

[ChaosLord]

They're strong, but not overpowered. The trick is to use infantry or cavalry with deep ranks, once they charge in they're surrounded. I've watched Egyptians charge into my deep formations then simply collapse halfway through. With how they're spread out they can't stop from easily being surrounded and killed when charging through units. So assuming you have it deep enough they should be easy. Of course, I play on huge unit sizes. Which means more chariots, but I can use deep formations easily. I'm not sure how many Chariots they get on normal but I think the same tactics would work.

But really, i've taken more losses from Desert Axemen/Bowmen units then Egyptians Chariots since I started using those tactics.

[DisruptorX]

They're strong, but not overpowered. The trick is to use infantry or cavalry with deep ranks, once they charge in they're surrounded. I've watched Egyptians charge into my deep formations then simply collapse halfway through. With how they're spread out they can't stop from easily being surrounded and killed when charging through units. So assuming you have it deep enough they should be easy. Of course, I play on huge unit sizes. Which means more chariots, but I can use deep formations easily. I'm not sure how many Chariots they get on normal but I think the same tactics would work.

But really, i've taken more losses from Desert Axemen/Bowmen units then Egyptians Chariots since I started using those tactics.

The problem is the way they move, its retarded. I have a problem with units teleporting short distances in and out of melee. This isn't Diablo.

They turn in circles in place like giant ants. Just watching them pisses me off.

[King Azzole]

To go alittle further its MOST egyptian faction units. For instance:

Bowmen: 240 men to a unit. Long range.
160 men to a unit. Armored and long range (pharoahs "guard" aka pharoahs assassins)

Infantry: Desert Axemen. Insane armor rating, PLUS bonus vs armored.
Nile spearmen. Phalanx just like any good ol Greek plus they have the infantry greek lacks.

Cavalry: Chariots, Massive 160 unit desert cavalry.

They are just tremendous ass kickers.

Suggestions:

Bowmen: Cut down the range. Or give the crossbows since they shoot that far. (JOKE) and slight raise in upkeep. 200 isnt enough for such superior archers.

Infantry: Lower desert axemans armor to 2 and raise there attack SLIGHTLY. Shield should also be lowered to 1-2. Its a friggin chessboard not a tower shield.

Cavalry: Increase Chariots turn radii, lower speed slightly, and reduce melee power, especially vs horses. That or increase build time to 2 turns, and increase upkeep and AIs desire to build them since they build those more than most units.

Egypt not only starts with all that but also has NO natural enemys. For this I suggest someone mod a Judean Faction to fight with them at first.

[solypsist]

in mtw there was a cav tactic where instead of charging the enemy, you had them run to a point immedietly behind the enemy unit - essentially charging through from front to back. does this work well for chariot attacks, too? or is it better to just charge normally?

[andrewt]

I agree. I also believe that most Egyptians' units are too cheap for their stats. They're sending really huge armies at me and rebuilding them very easily. If they didn't have 40+ naval units sucking up around 4,000 denarii per turn, I'd have way more trouble than i had.

[Dark_Magician]

The only remotely cost effective way I've found to defeat is to shoot it up with them using horse archers. Even then, I take way too many losses to these guys.

It wouldnt help much, but one onager's fire shot takes 3 chariots

[The_Emperor]

Egypt are very overpowering, I played a campaign as them and man they have it good!

The Selucids cannot put up a good fight, even if your just using bowmen slingers and Spearmen, but those chariots level up very FAST in battle.

Like Elephants the chariots knock over your men as they run through them, this is one of the reasons why chariot archers are great for dealing with routers (even the Briton Chariots) because you can run through routers and knock them down and then shoot them down at will...

But I also found out that they are not invulnerable. Whenever my chariots hit some solid unbroken infantry they did die well. (generals often kicked the bucket in such a manner).

Also archer fire was bad for them, Horse/camel archers and bowmen always made life difficult for me, because a chariot is such a large target. Cavalry charging them down fromt he rear was also a real problem. I also found out that chariots have a tough time in the very tight city streets, assaulting the selucids pathfinding on my chariots in those very narrow Greek streets was awful. (not the outer area as shown in the screenie above)

The main problem with fighting chariots is the same as fighting elephants, their ability to knock your men on their backs. This way you have to deal with them on their own and make sure no enemy inf is around when you take care of them, otherwise they will exploit it.