Chariots vs Horses = BULLLLLL SHEEEEET

[King Azzole]

Ok this is pissing me off. TWICE in a row I tried to siege an egyptian city and TWICE in a row the goddamn horse chariots not only OUTRAN my general on horse back but killed him instantly upon touching him. THis is ALITTLE ridiculous I am so pissed at the amount of time ive wasted here. Its alittle absurd that chariots instantly kill all cavalry. The damn chariot ARCHERS even kill cavalry instantly.

[Colovion]

It's even more stupid that chariots can catch up to horses - sure they're Heavy Cav, but Chariots would still be slower than Heavy Cav I'd think - though marginally.

[andrewt]

I've had the same experience. I tried attacking chariots using everything I have. They cut down Eastern Infantry. They beat Persian cavalry. They beat Bedouin Archers and Warriors (both Camel units) and they beat Arab Cavalry. I attack them from behind and my cavalry do stupid stuff and won't charge them directly. They do stupid stuff like circling around and hesitating and reforming and all kinds of other stupid things. On the times they actually charged, I lost a lot of units.

Chariots obliterate everything. Even Cataphracts get cut down in bunches while charging them. It's not just the arrows either. Their melee capabilities are ridiculous, even the chariot horse archers deal way too much damage. Chariots are horribly overpowered right now. They needed a nerf way more than elephants did. At least elephants are expensive.

The only remotely cost effective way I've found to defeat is to shoot it up with them using horse archers. Even then, I take way too many losses to these guys.

It's also ridiculous how fast they move, especially on rocky ground. Even the H2 can't move that fast on rocky ground.

[BDC]

Face the Amazons. They are EVIL. Never trust a woman who rides in a breastplate in the snow.

[Dorkus]

the egyptian generals ahve the missile stats of the chariot archers, and the melee stats of the normal chariots. They're really deadly.

IIRC, two full units of hastati can take down an egyptian chariot in melee with (relatively) few casualties. Theykey is to get them stuck in the horde of soliders, so they can't pull that "run everyone over and knock them down" stuff.

Of course, trying to catch the egyptian generals with infantry is really problematic, especially since they shoot while moving. Best thing to do is set up a trap -- chase the generals with cav into a sitting infantry wall.

Easier said than done.

[LittleRaven]

The trick is just get the chariots to stop. Once stopped, anything and everything kills them almost instantly. But the only way I've found to stop them is to mire them in infantry. Which means trapping them, as Dorkus suggests.

And yes, it's a huge pain.

[Dorkus]

I forgot the most important point. The two (or more) units of hastati or other infantry should be ON TOP of each other. Yes, that's right, crowded into the same positoin .This seems to stop the chariot in their tracks. That will seem incredibly counter intuitive for an mtw player (given the severe crowding penalties), especially since chariots have an aoe attack. But having a thick mass of infantry seems to stop the chariots cold.

Once they're mired in the mass with 20 guys attacking them at once, they die rather quickly.

You can usually rout the chariots w/ minimal casualties using this method (assuming the chariots run directly into the mass).

Still very hard to get chariot archers to do this, however, without an elaborately staged trap.

[Kommodus]

Hm, I've heard this observation quite a few times now. What I find strange about it is that chariots were not exactly the most effective arm of any army during the game's time period. Their rule of the battlefield effectively ended when cavalry became widespread, if I remember correctly. Cavalry was faster and more maneuverable than chariots, and could sever the cart from the horses, rendering the chariot helpless. Chariots still had their uses, but were nowhere near the kings of the battlefield they had been prior to the Iron Age. Here's one link:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Cavalry

Thus, during this time period, they should be in the twilight of their usefulness (even more so than the phalanx, in fact). Chariot archers could be a decent mobile ranged unit (inferior to horse archers, however), and scythed chariots could potentially tear through closely-packed infantry formations, but no chariots would be a match for decent cavalry. In close combat, chariots would also be at a severe disadvantage; even half-decent infantry could destroy chariots if they could close with them. They simply provide too large of a target to strike at; if either of the men or horses are disabled, the entire unit becomes useless.

I'm sensing this will be modified in a mod, along with other things.

[DisruptorX]

Yup, chariots were outdated, unmanoeverable, and easy to destroy.

Which is funny, because not only can they turn on a dime in RTW, but they can actually teleport short distances.

[Oaty]

SQUARE FORMATIONS!!!!!!!!!!! so that no matter what side the chariots hit the infantry at, they get trapped in the carnage to come. Javelin skirmishers seem to be the best at keeping them out of the main battle with skirish off of course and make sure they are in a square formation in case they get a little to frisky.

[King Azzole]

UPDATE: I just had 2000 hoplites decimated in a city battle by 5 groups of chariot ARCHERS. They just ran right through my hoplites and disorganized and cut them down, and then to spit in my face they outran my general AGAIN and killed him instantly. I am so frustrated at this point im thinking of just bribing all the egyptians and just taking there lands so I dont have to deal with this BS anymore. I slaughter the romans head on, Pontis as well, Macedons? No problem. Dacians? Dead. Thracians? My vassels. Come the egyptians, stupid ass chariots annihilating me.

[Longasc]

Well, I see severe balancing problems there, but still Azzhole,

a good player with a balanced Army would have won against them!

The AI is not bright at all, lure the Chariots in traps.

You probably have no Elephants, but they work well against Chariots - they work well against everything.

OK, I agree, the Chariots are strange and ridiculous, but do not give up, fight them!!!

[Soulflame]

UPDATE: I just had 2000 hoplites decimated in a city battle by 5 groups of chariot ARCHERS. They just ran right through my hoplites and disorganized and cut them down, and then to spit in my face they outran my general AGAIN and killed him instantly. I am so frustrated at this point im thinking of just bribing all the egyptians and just taking there lands so I dont have to deal with this BS anymore. I slaughter the romans head on, Pontis as well, Macedons? No problem. Dacians? Dead. Thracians? My vassels. Come the egyptians, stupid ass chariots annihilating me.

Umm.. Pontis can build Chariots and Chariot Archers too .

Yes, they really are a pain. So far the only thing that worked for me were o(w)nagers, obliterating about 4 with a carefully placed lop. And archers. The bad thing is, Chariots have about 4 hp, so they can get into danger, run over your guys, get a hit or 2, and run on. O(w)nagers ignore hitpoints.. and archers are nice because they can deal the damage from afar (before the chariots roll over them).
Phalangites are good too, but you need to get the chariots to charge them head on .. you could use a lure, but chariot archers usually won't bite (normal chariots do).

Chariots should really be slower then cavalry. They simply are heavier (more weight per horse), so they should be slower, or tire faster.

[andrewt]

Well, in my battle in Memphis, the Egyptians' chariot archers had a longer stamina than my Bedouins, which are camel units.

[Red Harvest]

The chariots are rather non-historic, turn on a dime, and move at med cav speeds. There is an issue with the AI not running down skirmish units like this. Every time the chariots pause and shoot, the AI has your pursuer stop as well, pick their noses, scratch their ... then reform and start the chase again. Light cav could catch them easily, except for this behaviour. They end up taking a bunch of losses and routing without ever making contact. They are not all that tough if you can pin them down, but it usually takes two units of cav to kill them on very hard. RTW rewards very fast units in ways that don't make much sense.

What I really "enjoyed" was watching the chariots go tearing through the woods. Hello, ever been through the woods, ridden horses through the woods off trail? It is not something you can do at high speed, unless you want to be draped across a low hanging limb without a bit of air left in your body. It has been a long time, but I haven't forgotten everything about riding horses. With chariots it would be worse. They would not navigate fallen timber like a horse and rider can. And the woods I've been in have their share of brush clumps and fallen timber. Imagine a chariot hitting a small deadwood tree trunk at RTW chariot speeds... "911, we have a rollover...no don't rush the ambulance, we cannot perform CPR, occupants appear to be headless."

If you want to kill chariots in a city, bring an elephant unit. Elephants are +8 vs. chariots while chariots get -8 vs. elephants.

[Inuyasha12]

Yeah while fighting egyptians my 4 units of legionary cav(wich took me two turns each to make!! ) where slaughtered by like 3 units of chariots. I though no problem my horses will cut them down. Nope not only did they successfully escape from my legionary cav, but they slaughered them as they routed afterwards. I won the battle because i was defending and the timer ran out!! If it wasn't for testudo formation my legions would have been swiss cheese.

[fastspawn]

i haven't actually faced down chariots yet, but from what i heard they sound monstrous.

Anyone has any idea, if i were to edit the unit files, how to balance the chariots? Like what stats to change to make them realistic?

[andrewt]

The chariots are rather non-historic, turn on a dime, and move at med cav speeds. There is an issue with the AI not running down skirmish units like this. Every time the chariots pause and shoot, the AI has your pursuer stop as well, pick their noses, scratch their ... then reform and start the chase again. Light cav could catch them easily, except for this behaviour. They end up taking a bunch of losses and routing without ever making contact. They are not all that tough if you can pin them down, but it usually takes two units of cav to kill them on very hard. RTW rewards very fast units in ways that don't make much sense.

What I really "enjoyed" was watching the chariots go tearing through the woods. Hello, ever been through the woods, ridden horses through the woods off trail? It is not something you can do at high speed, unless you want to be draped across a low hanging limb without a bit of air left in your body. It has been a long time, but I haven't forgotten everything about riding horses. With chariots it would be worse. They would not navigate fallen timber like a horse and rider can. And the woods I've been in have their share of brush clumps and fallen timber. Imagine a chariot hitting a small deadwood tree trunk at RTW chariot speeds... "911, we have a rollover...no don't rush the ambulance, we cannot perform CPR, occupants appear to be headless."

If you want to kill chariots in a city, bring an elephant unit. Elephants are +8 vs. chariots while chariots get -8 vs. elephants.

Well, it's not just chariots and other skirmishers. My bedouins, and to a lesser extent, other cavalry are also doing the stop, pick their noses, smell the roses, before charging again against routing hoplites, slingers, other infantry.

As for chariots, everything about them is unbalanced, overpowered and unhistorical. They have better offroad capabilities than the H2 and other modern SUVs, move as fast as medium cavalry and absolutely shred everything, infantry and cavalry as well. I think their stats need to be halved, for starters. That and they need to be slower than heavy cav, even cataphracts. Also, add a huge movement penalty in rough terrain.

It's the ultimate triumph of stupid mass market versus reality and any sense. Egypt in general is very powerful and these things are horribly overpowered.

[King Azzole]

yea can anyone tell me why some desert axeman wearing a skirt and holding a small square wooden shield has more defense value then a fully armored hastati, or even a regular hoplite? Plus its not even there defense skill thats high, its there "armor." Or why they have some of the longest range bowmen in the game and they come in hordes of 240 (huge setting)?

[Red Harvest]

yea can anyone tell me why some desert axeman wearing a skirt and holding a small square wooden shield has more defense value then a fully armored hastati, or even a regular hoplite? Plus its not even there defense skill thats high, its there "armor." Or why they have some of the longest range bowmen in the game and they come in hordes of 240 (huge setting)?

I am astonished with the axemen stats. They have a picture of shirtless guys and an 11 armour rating, WTF? I could understand high skill, but high armour? What do they have, giant nipple shields for their piercings? I intend to start a discussion thread on this...

[andrewt]

Those 120 man bowmen are very powerful. I charge them using 2 horse archers or persian cavalry and I still take a lot of losses.

[Mr. Juice]

Egypt is just rediculous. From their 50% larger archer units that shoot down my men faster than a tactical nuke could, to the chariot archers that own everything they MELEE with, to the Axemen with insane stats. Oh, and lets not forget the chariots that outrun my light cavalry mercs. I buy up mercenaries before each battle (if I have money) and these are my 'throwaway troops' that chase after bowmen and chariots. Usually about 0-14 make it back from each unit :(

At least my more important troops don't have to deal with the crazyness as much.

[dessa14]

well egyptian chariots would probably be able to out run, heavy cav.
since egyptian chariots were very very light.
ive seen them, very few of them survived because they were so light.
they are not very substantial.
thanks,
dessa

[andrewt]

That's assuming the terrain is flat. A few bumps and the chariot should be riderless. I fought them in rocky ground near Antioch and they were at full speed. Also, the chariot archers are carrying 3 people which is more of a burden. They shouldn't be able to turn directions that fast, either.

[King Azzole]

If they turned that fast with 3 people on it they would all fly off. Physics people. Its called momentum.

[Longasc]

How about this:

Lets make some modding suggestions or mod stats of units out of balance and post them in a separate "suggestions to RTW balancing for CA" thread

[Thoros of Myr]

I wouldent be opposed to removing them alltogether.

[Oaty]

That's assuming the terrain is flat. A few bumps and the chariot should be riderless. I fought them in rocky ground near Antioch and they were at full speed. Also, the chariot archers are carrying 3 people which is more of a burden. They shouldn't be able to turn directions that fast, either.

Actually a chariot rode smoothly over bumpy terrain. This is considering the horse(s) were near full speed. Some guys built a chariot to Egyptian design and rode it on rough terrain and found that when the chariot is at full speed it just glides over the bumps giving a smooth ride. They even placed an archer on it who could shoot very accurately.

Now as far as turning speeds, woods and the time period that's the bad part.

[Inuyasha12]

Egypt is just rediculous. From their 50% larger archer units that shoot down my men faster than a tactical nuke could, to the chariot archers that own everything they MELEE with, to the Axemen with insane stats. Oh, and lets not forget the chariots that outrun my light cavalry mercs. I buy up mercenaries before each battle (if I have money) and these are my 'throwaway troops' that chase after bowmen and chariots. Usually about 0-14 make it back from each unit :(

At least my more important troops don't have to deal with the crazyness as much

Yeah i know! Thats why as brutti i stopped short of egypt, not only are they very hard to beat, but once you have their cities are near impossible to hold on to!!They come with huge culture penalties, and large amounts of squalor!!

But when you play as egypt its pretty damn fun too!!

[hotingzilla]

If they turned that fast with 3 people on it they would all fly off. Physics people. Its called momentum.

That's very true. But the riders had metal straps that hung them onto the horse and the chariot.