Chariots vs Horses = BULLLLLL SHEEEEET

[King Azzole]

Ok this is pissing me off. TWICE in a row I tried to siege an egyptian city and TWICE in a row the goddamn horse chariots not only OUTRAN my general on horse back but killed him instantly upon touching him. THis is ALITTLE ridiculous I am so pissed at the amount of time ive wasted here. Its alittle absurd that chariots instantly kill all cavalry. The damn chariot ARCHERS even kill cavalry instantly.

[Colovion]

It's even more stupid that chariots can catch up to horses - sure they're Heavy Cav, but Chariots would still be slower than Heavy Cav I'd think - though marginally.

[andrewt]

I've had the same experience. I tried attacking chariots using everything I have. They cut down Eastern Infantry. They beat Persian cavalry. They beat Bedouin Archers and Warriors (both Camel units) and they beat Arab Cavalry. I attack them from behind and my cavalry do stupid stuff and won't charge them directly. They do stupid stuff like circling around and hesitating and reforming and all kinds of other stupid things. On the times they actually charged, I lost a lot of units.

Chariots obliterate everything. Even Cataphracts get cut down in bunches while charging them. It's not just the arrows either. Their melee capabilities are ridiculous, even the chariot horse archers deal way too much damage. Chariots are horribly overpowered right now. They needed a nerf way more than elephants did. At least elephants are expensive.

The only remotely cost effective way I've found to defeat is to shoot it up with them using horse archers. Even then, I take way too many losses to these guys.

It's also ridiculous how fast they move, especially on rocky ground. Even the H2 can't move that fast on rocky ground.

[BDC]

Face the Amazons. They are EVIL. Never trust a woman who rides in a breastplate in the snow.

[Dorkus]

the egyptian generals ahve the missile stats of the chariot archers, and the melee stats of the normal chariots. They're really deadly.

IIRC, two full units of hastati can take down an egyptian chariot in melee with (relatively) few casualties. Theykey is to get them stuck in the horde of soliders, so they can't pull that "run everyone over and knock them down" stuff.

Of course, trying to catch the egyptian generals with infantry is really problematic, especially since they shoot while moving. Best thing to do is set up a trap -- chase the generals with cav into a sitting infantry wall.

Easier said than done.

[Dark_Magician]

The only remotely cost effective way I've found to defeat is to shoot it up with them using horse archers. Even then, I take way too many losses to these guys.

It wouldnt help much, but one onager's fire shot takes 3 chariots

[The_Emperor]

Egypt are very overpowering, I played a campaign as them and man they have it good!

The Selucids cannot put up a good fight, even if your just using bowmen slingers and Spearmen, but those chariots level up very FAST in battle.

Like Elephants the chariots knock over your men as they run through them, this is one of the reasons why chariot archers are great for dealing with routers (even the Briton Chariots) because you can run through routers and knock them down and then shoot them down at will...

But I also found out that they are not invulnerable. Whenever my chariots hit some solid unbroken infantry they did die well. (generals often kicked the bucket in such a manner).

Also archer fire was bad for them, Horse/camel archers and bowmen always made life difficult for me, because a chariot is such a large target. Cavalry charging them down fromt he rear was also a real problem. I also found out that chariots have a tough time in the very tight city streets, assaulting the selucids pathfinding on my chariots in those very narrow Greek streets was awful. (not the outer area as shown in the screenie above)

The main problem with fighting chariots is the same as fighting elephants, their ability to knock your men on their backs. This way you have to deal with them on their own and make sure no enemy inf is around when you take care of them, otherwise they will exploit it.

[LittleRaven]

The trick is just get the chariots to stop. Once stopped, anything and everything kills them almost instantly. But the only way I've found to stop them is to mire them in infantry. Which means trapping them, as Dorkus suggests.

And yes, it's a huge pain.

[Dorkus]

I forgot the most important point. The two (or more) units of hastati or other infantry should be ON TOP of each other. Yes, that's right, crowded into the same positoin .This seems to stop the chariot in their tracks. That will seem incredibly counter intuitive for an mtw player (given the severe crowding penalties), especially since chariots have an aoe attack. But having a thick mass of infantry seems to stop the chariots cold.

Once they're mired in the mass with 20 guys attacking them at once, they die rather quickly.

You can usually rout the chariots w/ minimal casualties using this method (assuming the chariots run directly into the mass).

Still very hard to get chariot archers to do this, however, without an elaborately staged trap.

[Kommodus]

Hm, I've heard this observation quite a few times now. What I find strange about it is that chariots were not exactly the most effective arm of any army during the game's time period. Their rule of the battlefield effectively ended when cavalry became widespread, if I remember correctly. Cavalry was faster and more maneuverable than chariots, and could sever the cart from the horses, rendering the chariot helpless. Chariots still had their uses, but were nowhere near the kings of the battlefield they had been prior to the Iron Age. Here's one link:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Cavalry

Thus, during this time period, they should be in the twilight of their usefulness (even more so than the phalanx, in fact). Chariot archers could be a decent mobile ranged unit (inferior to horse archers, however), and scythed chariots could potentially tear through closely-packed infantry formations, but no chariots would be a match for decent cavalry. In close combat, chariots would also be at a severe disadvantage; even half-decent infantry could destroy chariots if they could close with them. They simply provide too large of a target to strike at; if either of the men or horses are disabled, the entire unit becomes useless.

I'm sensing this will be modified in a mod, along with other things.

[DisruptorX]

Yup, chariots were outdated, unmanoeverable, and easy to destroy.

Which is funny, because not only can they turn on a dime in RTW, but they can actually teleport short distances.

[Oaty]

SQUARE FORMATIONS!!!!!!!!!!! so that no matter what side the chariots hit the infantry at, they get trapped in the carnage to come. Javelin skirmishers seem to be the best at keeping them out of the main battle with skirish off of course and make sure they are in a square formation in case they get a little to frisky.

[King Azzole]

UPDATE: I just had 2000 hoplites decimated in a city battle by 5 groups of chariot ARCHERS. They just ran right through my hoplites and disorganized and cut them down, and then to spit in my face they outran my general AGAIN and killed him instantly. I am so frustrated at this point im thinking of just bribing all the egyptians and just taking there lands so I dont have to deal with this BS anymore. I slaughter the romans head on, Pontis as well, Macedons? No problem. Dacians? Dead. Thracians? My vassels. Come the egyptians, stupid ass chariots annihilating me.

[Longasc]

Well, I see severe balancing problems there, but still Azzhole,

a good player with a balanced Army would have won against them!

The AI is not bright at all, lure the Chariots in traps.

You probably have no Elephants, but they work well against Chariots - they work well against everything.

OK, I agree, the Chariots are strange and ridiculous, but do not give up, fight them!!!

[Soulflame]

UPDATE: I just had 2000 hoplites decimated in a city battle by 5 groups of chariot ARCHERS. They just ran right through my hoplites and disorganized and cut them down, and then to spit in my face they outran my general AGAIN and killed him instantly. I am so frustrated at this point im thinking of just bribing all the egyptians and just taking there lands so I dont have to deal with this BS anymore. I slaughter the romans head on, Pontis as well, Macedons? No problem. Dacians? Dead. Thracians? My vassels. Come the egyptians, stupid ass chariots annihilating me.

Umm.. Pontis can build Chariots and Chariot Archers too .

Yes, they really are a pain. So far the only thing that worked for me were o(w)nagers, obliterating about 4 with a carefully placed lop. And archers. The bad thing is, Chariots have about 4 hp, so they can get into danger, run over your guys, get a hit or 2, and run on. O(w)nagers ignore hitpoints.. and archers are nice because they can deal the damage from afar (before the chariots roll over them).
Phalangites are good too, but you need to get the chariots to charge them head on .. you could use a lure, but chariot archers usually won't bite (normal chariots do).

Chariots should really be slower then cavalry. They simply are heavier (more weight per horse), so they should be slower, or tire faster.

[fastspawn]

i haven't actually faced down chariots yet, but from what i heard they sound monstrous.

Anyone has any idea, if i were to edit the unit files, how to balance the chariots? Like what stats to change to make them realistic?

[solypsist]

I've run over my own men, seen them fall down and disappear, and yet they don;t register as casualties when the battle is over (same with the unit heal) - one unit that was half mowed down by my general's chariot unit remained at full strength at the end of the fight!

chariots are teh hot

[ChaosLord]

They're strong, but not overpowered. The trick is to use infantry or cavalry with deep ranks, once they charge in they're surrounded. I've watched Egyptians charge into my deep formations then simply collapse halfway through. With how they're spread out they can't stop from easily being surrounded and killed when charging through units. So assuming you have it deep enough they should be easy. Of course, I play on huge unit sizes. Which means more chariots, but I can use deep formations easily. I'm not sure how many Chariots they get on normal but I think the same tactics would work.

But really, i've taken more losses from Desert Axemen/Bowmen units then Egyptians Chariots since I started using those tactics.

[DisruptorX]

They're strong, but not overpowered. The trick is to use infantry or cavalry with deep ranks, once they charge in they're surrounded. I've watched Egyptians charge into my deep formations then simply collapse halfway through. With how they're spread out they can't stop from easily being surrounded and killed when charging through units. So assuming you have it deep enough they should be easy. Of course, I play on huge unit sizes. Which means more chariots, but I can use deep formations easily. I'm not sure how many Chariots they get on normal but I think the same tactics would work.

But really, i've taken more losses from Desert Axemen/Bowmen units then Egyptians Chariots since I started using those tactics.

The problem is the way they move, its retarded. I have a problem with units teleporting short distances in and out of melee. This isn't Diablo.

They turn in circles in place like giant ants. Just watching them pisses me off.

[King Azzole]

To go alittle further its MOST egyptian faction units. For instance:

Bowmen: 240 men to a unit. Long range.
160 men to a unit. Armored and long range (pharoahs "guard" aka pharoahs assassins)

Infantry: Desert Axemen. Insane armor rating, PLUS bonus vs armored.
Nile spearmen. Phalanx just like any good ol Greek plus they have the infantry greek lacks.

Cavalry: Chariots, Massive 160 unit desert cavalry.

They are just tremendous ass kickers.

Suggestions:

Bowmen: Cut down the range. Or give the crossbows since they shoot that far. (JOKE) and slight raise in upkeep. 200 isnt enough for such superior archers.

Infantry: Lower desert axemans armor to 2 and raise there attack SLIGHTLY. Shield should also be lowered to 1-2. Its a friggin chessboard not a tower shield.

Cavalry: Increase Chariots turn radii, lower speed slightly, and reduce melee power, especially vs horses. That or increase build time to 2 turns, and increase upkeep and AIs desire to build them since they build those more than most units.

Egypt not only starts with all that but also has NO natural enemys. For this I suggest someone mod a Judean Faction to fight with them at first.

[solypsist]

in mtw there was a cav tactic where instead of charging the enemy, you had them run to a point immedietly behind the enemy unit - essentially charging through from front to back. does this work well for chariot attacks, too? or is it better to just charge normally?

[andrewt]

I agree. I also believe that most Egyptians' units are too cheap for their stats. They're sending really huge armies at me and rebuilding them very easily. If they didn't have 40+ naval units sucking up around 4,000 denarii per turn, I'd have way more trouble than i had.