An apology to JAG dirested by Saturnas

[Devastatin Dave]

Since I can't post in the backroom anymore, I just wanted to apologize to JAG for calling me a racist in this thread..

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=35293

I'm glad that a person of your moral fiber called me something like a racist, because with terrorist, child molesting supporting persons such as yourself, I find your name calling a compliment.

And Saturnus, good luck with your "moderation". Funny word "moderation". It is close to "moderate" meaning in the middle, something you obviously know nothing about. Truthfully niether do I, but I don't have the rights to ban folks now do I to silence their opinions.

"This is an information in regard of your demotion at TotalWar.org:



Dave,

It took some time for us, but now the consequences of your behaviour
have
come. Your posting style has reached a new low lately. I´m not gone
list all
your misbehaviour, but especially your outbursts at JAG have been the
worst
posts I´ve ever seen at this board. Maybe rivaled by squippy´s. I don´t
care
what reasons you have for that, such things are inacceptable and simply
don´t happen here. Since warnings seem not to have an effect on you, we
have
to take harsher actions. You are demoted to Senior Patron and are no
longer
allowed to post in the Backroom. The other areas of the Org are still
open
to you.

On a more personal note: We have given you chance after chance and this
is
how you thank us! I do not deny that your presence at the Tavern has
been
enriching it, but I will not tolerate that members are treated like you
have
done in a forum where I´m Moderator. I´m personally disappointed by you
and
within the staff, I´ll vote against your reentry into the Backroom as
long
as I don´t have a clear sign of lasting improvement. It´ll be some hard
work
to convince me. A serious apology to JAG would be a good start.

I wish you well.

Saturnus"

So there's my apology.
I'm sure this will be deleted and edited so it doesn't upset the tranquility of the ORG.

Hey squippy, congratulations, you lasted longer than I did!!!

[Sjakihata]

PM = Private Message, I think the keyword here is private...

[A.Saturnus]

Hmm, you misspelled my name in the title.

[KukriKhan]

It's good to see that Devastatin Dave is on the road to recovery: not a single f-bomb, or X-rated description of a sex act. Still have to work on those flames and personal attacks - but hey!, it's only been a couple of days. Keep trying, m8.

Side note: never put anything anywhere on the internet that you'd not like to see on tomorrow's NY Times front page - there is no privacy on the 'net, as has been demonstrated above.

[JAG]

It is strange seeing you scream blue murder at the mods because that is pretty much exactly what I did when I was demoted for what I preceived as nothing. I guess it just highlights to me the hard job they do have and that we should try and respect them a bit more than we generally do in the backroom. I would also like to say sorry to them if I did cause offence.

Dave I understand that your very pee'd off at the moment, I would too in your position. But don't let your emotions control you too much, I am sure you will regret this post in a few days time and the damage would have already been done, I don't want to see you gone from the tavern. For the record you don't need to apologise to me, I do not take offence at any personal comment or any other comment on these boards, so don't feel like you need to. I probably did push the mods to dicipline you because I was taken aback more than anything with a few of your posts at me, as I would not say that about someone of whom I didn't even know. But I never wanted you gone from the tavern, understand that was never on my mind and I hope that still that isn't what happens.

Cool down a bit mate before posting anymore here.

[John86]

Since I can't post in the backroom anymore, I just wanted to apologize to JAG for calling me a racist in this thread..

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=35293

A serious apology to JAG would be a good start.

Hmm. Well i looked in the thread Dev showed and i really dont see anything that should have gotten him demoted.

Well Saturn, i think you should pm Jag and tell him to give a "serious apology" to everyone he called racist, dumb, or a stupid "kiddie conservative". If you like i will post the threads where Jag constantly flamed (if wi can find them) against anyone religious, conservative or young, and the mods did nothing about it. Im sure there are many here that will agree with me.

[JAG]

If you think nothing happened to me you need to open your eyes.

If you think that the material which was the cause of this has not been deleted / edited and was only in that thread, you also need to open your eyes.

Why oh why must you try and turn this into a flame war thread Hiji, it solves nothing

[Hosakawa Tito]

Such a backhanded non apology, a private message would have sufficed rather than this. A private message to convey your F bombs etc..., instead of posting them for all to see, would have helped avoid the demotion also. But then, what's the point if one can't "play to the crowd" eh? I suggest some of you use the ignore/enemy button and just avoid talking to the people you can't stand, instead of this Three Stooges routine.

Hiji , the worst of what was said has been saved, and then edited out of the public thread. It would be considered "normal" interaction in a jailhouse setting, but completely unacceptable here. Not that it's any of your business , but both parties have been dealt with.

[Navaros]

since this is a public discussion i will throw my 2 cents in:

i am not happy that Dave got demoted.

it is my belief that if we are mature, intelligent people, then there is no need to silence any opinions, no matter how controversial. God didn't give any of us the "moral authority" to silence things that we do not like to hear. it is inherently unfair that certain things are silenced here, yet other even more offensive things are not. "offensive" of course is a subjective term, but it is subjective to all of us, not just some. even to Moderators and Admins. that is why having rules that silence certain comments because they are "offensive" can never truly be fair.

now, don't get me wrong. i realize the Mods have the legal authority and are within their rights to silence whatever they want to. i'm not disputing that. to quote a wise Klingon Diplomat: "just because we can do a thing, it does not follow that we must do that thing." which IMO applies to this situation: yes the Mods can silence people, but that doesn't mean that they should .

on a final note, JAG is not exactly a "pillar of morality" himself. i have witnessed occasions of JAG making personal attacks on other members. hence, it is especially unfair to silence Dave for the very same thing that JAG has done, yet JAG does not get silenced as well.

[lancelot]

Isnt that 'can do a thing' line in Starship troopers as well? And which Klingon was it who said that? I dont recall.....not that its important at all really....sigh.

[KukriKhan]

Point of order: Dave has not been "silenced"; he started this thread. He is being denied posting priviledges in the Tavern.

JAG has 'done his time' in the time-out box as well, it simply wasn't made public. Just as Dave's time-out wouldn't have been made public; he chose that. Hence this discussion.

As always, moderator actions are performed mostly behind the scenes; we try persuading, cajoling, joking, whatever-it-takes, to insure compliance with the forum rules that all here agreed to abide by when we registered. Usually, that 'persuasive' approach works, and members fix whatever the problem was. Other times, 'persuasive' doesn't work, and stricter sanctions are applied.

I'm sorry you are unhappy, Navaros. Me too. I want the Org to be a place where members respect each other in their words, and afford each member the personal dignity they deserve. Someday, we'll have that.

[Beirut]

It's a shame the Dave is out, for the more opnions the better. But without a doubt there must be a moderated level of discourse lest this forum degenerate into anarchy.

Forums that have no standards are the least interesting. Having enforced standards of behaviour encourages people to think and chose the best words to suit the argument, as opposed to the easiest words, which often are little more than comments about the other person's mother.

I'm looking forward to Dave coming back. I don't agree with much of what he says, but he absolutely should be here saying it.

[Devastatin Dave]

Point of order: Dave has not been "silenced"; he started this thread. He is being denied posting priviledges in the Tavern.

JAG has 'done his time' in the time-out box as well, it simply wasn't made public. Just as Dave's time-out wouldn't have been made public; he chose that. Hence this discussion.

As always, moderator actions are performed mostly behind the scenes; we try persuading, cajoling, joking, whatever-it-takes, to insure compliance with the forum rules that all here agreed to abide by when we registered. Usually, that 'persuasive' approach works, and members fix whatever the problem was. Other times, 'persuasive' doesn't work, and stricter sanctions are applied.

I'm sorry you are unhappy, Navaros. Me too. I want the Org to be a place where members respect each other in their words, and afford each member the personal dignity they deserve. Someday, we'll have that.

Great post, I deserved my banning. And no, I'm not sorry. JAG and I have gone back and forth forever and a day. Does it mean I hate him, hell no, he's a great guy and I've promised him that if he's ever in the States, he can saty at my house and I'm going to take him on a tour to some Civil War battle fields. We both know what gets under out skins and we both, I'm sure, enjoy the rhetorical boxing match. I said some real harsh stuff in the thread that Goof and JAG called me a racist in, it got edited. So after that, I went on the attack. That's just me. Maybe its better that the mods keep me out of the Tavern. So JAG, I'm sorry i hit under the belt a few times, but I'm sure you liked it!!!

Sat, sorry I mispelled your name!!!

Everyone knows the sort of hot headed irrational posts I make at times and considering this is the God knows how many times I've been banned or warned, the mods are doing the right thing.

I'm the dirty underbelly of the extreme right. For that, I deserve much of what i recieve because I dish out some real filth. So I'm well deserved in my banning and could use the vacation.

Am I apologizing? Nope, just keepin it real my niggahs!!! Word to yo mutha

Peace!!!

[ICantSpellDawg]

its a retard frenzy in here

sorry to see you go

[Fragony]

PM = Private Message, I think the keyword here is private...

Ha says who! I can still remember this little incident with private messages

[Demon of Light]

I´m personally disappointed by you
and
within the staff, I´ll vote against your reentry into the Backroom as
long
as I don´t have a clear sign of lasting improvement.

I wish you well.

Saturnus"

Just a procedural question but I had no idea that votes were taken to reinstate a demoted individual. How often and under what cicumstances?

[Mount Suribachi]

God knows how many times I've been banned or warned

Why does banning Dave remind me of The Great Escape where they keep putting Steve McQueen in solitary?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Dave,
I hear you loud and clear, and untill this is resolved, I shall no longer post in the backroom myself because I have done 10x worse than you in posting etiquite (barring the X-rated stuff) so I was wondering "Why wasn't I banned?"
-Capo

[ICantSpellDawg]

i dont want you guys to leave in reality - who would counter the absolute garbage and broken understandings of our mutual enemies?

[Sjakihata]

Ha says who! I can still remember this little incident with private messages

LOL

[Hosakawa Tito]

Demon of Light , Kukri, Saturnus, and I always discuss issuance of warnings and/or demotions on a case by case basis. However, in regards to demotion we don't have the final say, that is up to the admins. We present the case, our recommendations, then it's out of our hands. Irregardless, each and every patron is in control of the entire situation. Your actions/deeds determine how things play out. It's like I tell the cons in the jail I work at, "I didn't put you here, YOU put you here."

Capo , ever hear the expression "feed them enough rope and they hang themselves" ? None of the moderators want, enjoy, get off on issuing warnings and/or presenting a patron to administration for possible demotion. As Kukri has stated,

As always, moderator actions are performed mostly behind the scenes; we try persuading, cajoling, joking, whatever-it-takes, to insure compliance with the forum rules that all here agreed to abide by when we registered. Usually, that 'persuasive' approach works, and members fix whatever the problem was. Other times, 'persuasive' doesn't work, and stricter sanctions are applied.

It's a hell of a lot of work to read the volumes of posts in here, and then write pm's to those that are breaking forum rules and try to get them to comply, and that's before any serious action has to take place for the recalcitrant ones. Ask yourself, why do we bother?
Wouldn't it be easier to just be petty tyrants and "off with their heads, who gives a damn"?
Figure it out.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

What the hell are you on about now, hosa?
I really have no Idea what your talking about.
Whatever, have your fun confusing me.

[Shahed]

You reap what you sow.

[Devastatin Dave]

You reap what you sow.

Exactly...
Capo, thanks for your support, but keep posting in the Backroom. I got what I deserved. Please don't get rude to Tito, if you could see the MANY warnings he has personally given to me you'd support the decision. I've kept the Mods busy every since I've been in the Tavern, so I am sure they can use the vacation as well. Well, they still be working hard since Capo WILL continue to post in the backroom!!!

But I think this thread can be productive because it can give an inside look to the less contriversal posters or would be mods on how the mods deal with the more contriversal members such as myself. So I hope the members ask proper questions and listen and understand the answers.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I still dont know what hosa was on about...
Ok, Dave. I'll *try* to temporarly take your place (double posts wohoo!)

[Hosakawa Tito]

Capo , you wondered aloud why you were not demoted. Taking Dave's place (behavior-wise) is the surest path to having that unpleasant event take place. I'm not familiar with your latest screw up, I was "out of action" that week. However, receive 5 formal warnings and your demoted for a minimum of 2 days, the gravity of your misdeeds will of course determine if more time, more quickly is in order. Everyone makes mistakes LEARN FROM THEM, but if you constantly push the boundaries of acceptable behavior, you just may find yourself demoted. I don't want that, I don't think you do either. That's what I'm "on about". Is that plain enough?

[Devastatin Dave]

Good explaination Tito. Capo, if you could see the amount of email warnings that the mods have sent me and the mulitple chances that were given to me, you'd understand more why I was demoted. Like I said before, use my experience constructively. When posting be strong but not too harsh. A rock breaks the same whether beaten with a hammer or placed in a gentle stream. Just look at the approach that Redleg takes. Believe me, its hard not to attack and go for the throat, but you can achieve your arguement with the same devastation with careful, surgical arguements.

[Ser Clegane]

That's what I like about this board - even if things get ugly in some heated discussions (which does not happen too often), in 90% of these cases I have the feeling that after people have let off some steam and chilled out a bit, we have somehow made a step forward.

[ah_dut]

Well if anyone sees thisboard as a bit too heated they need to take a visit to the ever flaming .com, i've given up on it, too many fanboys. anyways Good luck to you all.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

My latest screw up was back on september 1st wen I used cencored versions of the word f*** in a post, a rant more like it, but I didn't get a warning. Also, before that my record has nearly been spotless this summer.

Also, ok, now I getcha. I was just saying that I have been in a situation similar to Dave
("racist" comments, flame wars, etc. and although I did not read Daves posts, I assume that I have done nearly the same thing and have not been demoted. thats all.

And why are you being so hostile Hosa, what did i say THIS time?