MTW after RTW

[Bhruic]

I'm not sure that the points you raise are any better in RTW than MTW Simon. For example, with the "dire" troops - yes, the AI will build better quality troops in RTW, but because it has issues with grouping them, it ends up with too many small groups wandering around that are easy to take out. Pretty much the exact same issue.

While I will concede that the reinforcements don't take forever, that's generally because there aren't as many units in battle. In the three games I've finished so far, I've only had 2 battles that had reinforcements that had to 'wait' to get on to the field (because I was over the limit). The AI has never had that. So I can't say that it's an improvement in the system so much as it is a way of limiting the system so that it doesn't come up as much. Not really an ideal solution.

And I'm not sure how you can point out the "pointless war" syndrome in MTW and ignore it in RTW. It seems at least as present to me.

Bh

[Boudicca]

I am a long term player of Medieval (since its release) and for me, Medieval had got a lot of AI - Bugs too...

I totally agree on the point, that two different designer teams must have been at work in both games, as Rome is in some points worse than medieval

- I hate these archers killing my field units instead of shooting at the enemy. A good programmer would have stopped the archers from shooting, especially when I´m moving my Infantry forward for assault

- city pathfinding is less than perfect in Rome

- Castle sieges are (even though there are pathfinding problems) much better in Rome total war. Although the AI is not that intelligent, I at least have the feeling, that I have to defend my castle. I´ve seen enough battles in medieval, where I just hat 50 Pikemen in my Castle with a 800+ army striking from outside, just placing itsself in front of the Gates in order to be slaughtered by castle defense

- Medieval had improved a lot by the available mods, I´ve extensively played BKB Super Mod, Fall of Rome, Hellenic and Napoleonic and I think there is room for improvement with Rome by modding too.

I am looking forward towards RTW mods...lets see what´s out there!

[ToranagaSama]

I CANNOT believe what I've just read.

Moridin, of all people, in essence, just said that MTW is *overall* a better experience, and, I believe he said A BETTER GAME!!!! (Figuratively not literally)

Sir, you have been one of the more aggressive RTW is the greatest thing since Hotcakes proponents, and now this.

I do believe you owe, at least, one of the Org members and apology, imvho.

I'd love to see your take on the RTW vs MedMod. There's a version for MTW plus Patch, I think its version 3.14. Why not load it up and give it a go, and if you happen to be passing the Bargain Bin, pickup VI, Patch it, and install the latest MedMod.

If your post represents your impression of vanilla MTW vs. RTW, then after playing VI plus the MedMod, then you'll fully comprehend what the Hardcore players have been whinning about.

I concur completely, the best of both worlds would be the RTW Strap Map (with a few adjustments) married to the MTW Battle Engine. Even sans the 3D battle field, units and sound effects, it would be a better experience; and please include the RTW sieges, which are infinitely better than MTW.

I might argue a point or two, but that was an EXCELLENT post.

[DisruptorX]

You do realize that in his other thread he said that he enjoyed MTW's features more than Rome's and the he was being the devil's advocate? He said himself that he was arguing just for the sake of argument....

[Lord Ovaat]

after playing VI plus the MedMod, then you'll fully comprehend what the Hardcore players have been whinning about.

You got it, TS. I can't help but try and compare RTW with MedMod, 'cause that's what I played for the last six months. I will say one thing, though. It's a darned good thing RTW doesn't have the homeland concept. Could you imagine trying to send replacement troops from Italy to Britain in RTW? TALK ABOUT TEDIUM! One of my biggest grips is still the SLOW speed of movement in the campaign map. Yea, we could zip a gov or unit from Wessex to Tripoli in one turn. That's a year, folks. Now it takes about six years, or 12 turns. (More or less) Yeah, I can see it now,

"Lord Ovaat, you have been appointed governor of Tripoli. Your boat leaves tomorrow."

"Really? Sorry, but at my age, I don't think I'd survive the trip. Try finding a sixteen-year-old."

Actually, campaign speed, camera angle, and a few other little things are my only complaints with RTW. Most everything else, I like, or at least am getting used to. Trade, seiges, etc. are far more realistic. They really needed to get a quick patch out to fix the multiplayer, but if they want to keep the vastly larger single player community happy, they need to address some of the issues. This game will only prosper with the single player experience being enjoyable. They should know that. That's where the money is.

[ChaosLord]

Before I got RTW I played a few campaigns of MTW using the latest MedMod to prepare. So I went directly from MedMod MTW to RTW and I must say RTW is still the better game. While their are bugs and annoying AI results overall the game is way beyond MTW. And no, I don't mean the graphics, I don't care one bit about them.

I mean in how cities are managed, population being important, fortifications/watchtowers being useful, the WIDE variety of unit types. I mean look at MTW with most factions using the same units, then look at RTW. The MedMod was better with this but still not as good. Now besides for a few similar factions playing a different faction FEELS like a different faction.

Theres been alot said about the battle speed and the interface which I agree with some of it. The interface itself is fine, except for camera controls and not being able to assign a unit to multiple groups. As for the battle speed it didn't bother me as much as other people. But thats because even in MTW I relied alot on my intial formation setup rather then alot of manuerving. However for those who like fine control I realize the speed is annoying. I think the speed should be dropped down to MTWs with the current speed being accessible through arcade battles.

If theres people who still want the current speed they could just speed it up like in MTW. I do have some other annoyances with the game, such as the slow speed of movement armies/ships have. Ships should move 2-3x as fast as they do, and armies should move at maybe 2x the speed. Thats of course just general game issues.

RTW will really shine through mods just like it was with MTW. I mean, we all know how laughably easy MTW was without mods, i'm finding RTW harder in comparison because of the greater focus on managing cities. Thats just my thoughts though not necesarrily the same as everyone elses.

[Arakasi]

I've played both extensively and right now I agree that due to bugs and issues that in battle MTW is superior. What needs to be done is several fixes.

1) Pathfinding bugs in cities and rivers
2) Slow down of killing rate
3) Slow down of movement speed
4) Fixing some AI concerns
4a) Have bigger stacks for AI armies (more large armies, less small armies)
4b) Work on some battle AI concerns such as defending the town square
4c) Balance some factions more
4d) Maneuvering in battles. I'd like to see enemy armies stay more cohesive
5) UI issues, although really for me this doesn't bother me much. The main thing I have problems here is with is the grouping commands.

I think it is hard to compare the two since MTW has been extensively patched and modded. The original MTW had its problems too. I like Ovaat and ChaosLord feel that RTW has much more potential than MTW. All the things that you can do in battle then are still there. Morale, fatigue, flank attacks, etc. It is just the current bugs such as movement speed and killing speed problems that are affecting this. Siege battles are much superior. And the Campaigns are miles ahead, even with the small army problems. I post also at TWC and a lot of these issues are being looked at. They've made some good inroads into the movement speed and killing speeds (even found out how it would be possible to change animations to attack slower), and I think have figured out a way to make huge fleets less prevalent.

Most of these things can be done by the modding communities. But I feel a couple things need to be fixed at CA. That being the pathfinding, UI and the AI fixes. I think everything else can be done with modding. The game looks to be incredibly moddable, even moreso than MTW. There is even good evidence of there being a campaign editor, which would be sweet.

As for Morindin, there is no need for him to apologize. He was not attacking fellow board members. He was just posting his opinion on the games.

[Slaists]

I am actually not sure about the killing speed: I believe, it's largerly due to much higher charge factors in RTW relative to MTW. Once the charge has worn off, the units tend to slug it out unless there are large differences in defense/attack between the two sides. I zoomed in on a battle where I had a bunch of armorerd hoplites surrounded by hastatii: it took hastatii a while to kill them off...

[Morindin]

I CANNOT believe what I've just read.

Moridin, of all people, in essence, just said that MTW is *overall* a better experience, and, I believe he said A BETTER GAME!!!! (Figuratively not literally)

Sir, you have been one of the more aggressive RTW is the greatest thing since Hotcakes proponents, and now this.

I do believe you owe, at least, one of the Org members and apology, imvho.

I'd love to see your take on the RTW vs MedMod. There's a version for MTW plus Patch, I think its version 3.14. Why not load it up and give it a go, and if you happen to be passing the Bargain Bin, pickup VI, Patch it, and install the latest MedMod.

If your post represents your impression of vanilla MTW vs. RTW, then after playing VI plus the MedMod, then you'll fully comprehend what the Hardcore players have been whinning about.

I concur completely, the best of both worlds would be the RTW Strap Map (with a few adjustments) married to the MTW Battle Engine. Even sans the 3D battle field, units and sound effects, it would be a better experience; and please include the RTW sieges, which are infinitely better than MTW.

I might argue a point or two, but that was an EXCELLENT post.

I dont think I owe anyone an apology, considering I have avoided personal attacks in my entire time on this forum.
I am conservative by nature, and I was giving the developers the benefit of the doubt. I like to complete at least one campaign of a game before deciding wether its 'good' or 'bad', x is unbalanced, the AI sucks, etc.
I do admit that I was caught up a bit in RTWs "oh-ah" and the hype, I still think some of complaints are unwarrented, but I am now seeing many of the MTW veterins side of things, and yes there also was a bit of devils advocate going on (someones gotta do it).

I still think RTW is the better game, but only just. This is my point, it should be a significantly better game even without all its irritating bugs.

Interesting perspective, Morindin. I am not sure how much you played MTW before RTW but I can't agree that RTW only scores by virtue of sounds and graphics (these things mean very little to me), or that the two games don't feel alike.

I played MTW regularly since it came out so naturally I think very highly of it. However, there were a number of negative features that seem absent in RTW. The MTW battle engine might be more to my taste (killing and charge speeds), but the battles themselves were not necessarily better because the AI fielded dire troops (on early) - eg peasants, ballistas, archers - and because the reinforcement issue was a major drag (the first wave could be a challenge, but then you could spend half an hour dealing with dross). I actually have come to like the brisk pace of RTW battles - with MTW, you would be scared of ending a turn late at night, because several battles might errupt that required 3 or more hours to play out manually.

The MTW strategic map was much less involving to me - moving armies round on the RTW campaign map reminds me of the way an army really moves and does not feel like Civ at all (that game had incredibly tedious combat with moving scores of weak units one or two squares at a time). In terms of grand strategy, the ability of the player (only) to get rich in MTW by trade arguably broke the game. Plus the inability of the AI to make peace, coupled with pointless wars sparked off by piracy, made the strategic layer lose some interest.

I don't know how you can say the games don't feel alike - to me the battles and the building elements of all three Total War games are virtually identical in terms of what you do and quite unlike any other games I have played (well, less so the building elements, but the battle engine is still pretty unique).

Maybe I'll feel differently when I've played more RTW, but I found it hard to go back to STW after MTW and suspect the same will be true about leaving RTW for MTW.

Simon, RTW brings a lot of things that when I first started playing MTW I wish were there (populations, diplomacy, mainly strategy map stuff). Yes the battlefield AI isnt that wonderful in MTW either, but overall i THINK its less frustrating.
Some of the things you dont like about MTW however I do like! (the whole reinforcement thing for example) :)
The trade thing could really break MTW yes, but personally I didnt 'exploit' it when I played, only putting ships in 'realistic' places. Arguably the whole crappy ship system in RTW is almost worse (however Im playing around with modding the attack rate on ships). Also why cant CA give you fleets of ships? Instead of 120men and ONE ship why cant we had squadrons of ships? Some of the battles between Carthage and Rome involved HUNDREDS of ships. Anyway, I disgress.
If you read my post Im pretty critical about MTW, but its a much older game now so I think it gets 'more excuses'.

Anyway I cant see myself playing many more than 2 campaigns in RTW until an expansion pack. I might head off into multiplayer world, but really for games of this scope and size, that's pretty sad (I've probably completed the Baldurs Gate2 campaign 10 times - now THAT is an Epic game!). I guess its party due to the fact that im not really interested in playing barbarian (or fighting, who here is sick to death of fighting Barbarians?) factions and there are so many of them in Rome.

[econ21]

Anyway I cant see myself playing many more than 2 campaigns in RTW until an expansion pack.

That would be a sad indictment of RTW if true. [Although, to be honest, I don't think I have played even one campaign of MTW solo to the bitter end, as I tended to lose interest when my faction became clearly the strongest.] I wonder if you have tried any PBMs in the throne room? They are what really gave MTW added life for me - maybe you should sign up for one of the RTW ones?

I found MTW a little too free-form - almost like a strategy game equivalent of the role-playing game Morrowind. You have great freedom and a pretty amazing world simulator, but can end up directionless and without sufficient hooks to keep you involved. PBMs get round that problem - the social aspect makes you care and there is definite end-point.

I've only played one RTW campaign so far - and it killed my computer midway through - so I shouldn't really comment. But I found it much more "more-ish" than MTW.

Partly it was the Senate missions - as Julii they seemed exceptionally well-chosen and well-timed, giving me a gentle nudge when things started to lag and giving nice rewards over short time periods.

Partly it was the strategy map - each army move is perhaps less important than in MTW and so it is less demanding (less chess-like). It has more of the Civ-like "one more turn" factor and less of the chess-like "my brain hurts" aspect.

And partly, it was a feeling that early dominance does not give the same benefits as in MTW. In MTW, I found that once you had absorbed an enemy faction, you were very hard to beat. This seems less true in RTW - perhaps due to squalor etc. Moreover, once the Julii have taken Gaul, there is still an awful lot to do. Other factions have more formiddable units (ok not hard given the poor Gaul line-up but nonetheless after the dross you fight in MTW on early, it was a great pleasure facing the Thracians fielding full armies with a hard centre of Phalanxes, flanked by lots of falxmen). Some factions - notably the other Romans and Egypt - do a decent job of keeping pace with you and make me suspect the Roman Civil War will be an epic.

Anyway, as I said, I probably haven't played enough RTW to reliably comment, but, at this point, it has fully lived up and indeed surpassed my very high expectations.

[Morindin]

That would be a sad indictment of RTW if true. [Although, to be honest, I don't think I have played even one campaign of MTW solo to the bitter end, as I tended to lose interest when my faction became clearly the strongest.] I wonder if you have tried any PBMs in the throne room? They are what really gave MTW added life for me - maybe you should sign up for one of the RTW ones?

Well its more to do with the fact that Im not really interested in many of the other factions apart from Rome (from a gameplay perspective). Barbarian factions are incredably uninteresting. Some of the non-barbarian factions might be worth playing, Carthage might be fun. We shall see though.

RTW PBE might be fun, but you cant really play the reign of your faction leader due to him being too long. Thats another thing, your faction leader doesnt seem to have the same impact as MTW. A low influence leader REALLY made a difference, whereas RTW everyone hates me anyway, and my faction leaders influence only seemed to impact the Senate rather than other factions. If your a hugely powerful Roman juggernaught you expect some people to bow to your will, but the diplomacy in RTW everyone treats me like im a 1 province nobody right until my armies burn their capital to the ground.

Im playing a MTW PBE right now with some friends who dont have RTW yet - yes its quite a blast. I might have a go at playing RTW PBE, right now my second long RTW campaign Im playing with heaps of mods to the game (Im trying 0.3 kill speed +4 morale, tweaked the ships, and battles are great!).

Oh yes Im having a lot of fun playing RTW alright. Its just after a while the bugs/unmodable design features really start to get you down and make you think 'what could have been'.

My major problem with my first campaign as the Julii was that you ended up fighting hundreds of barbarians that were basically only different colours, with the exception of conquering Greece/Macedonia. I also got sick of endless snow covered maps, and I couldnt really expand down into more "interesting" territory (and worthy foes) due to the other factions controlling it, and the fact they were just too far away.
Also as time goes on the Senate missions become more of a drag than anything, they're unrealistic and I pretty much ignored 90% of them towards the end of the game. At the beginning of the game they're great however.
Fighting the Romans was definately interesting and fun, apart from the fact they had pre-marius troops when I had stacks of Urban Cohorts. :)

[Medieval Assassin]

Agreed, as most people see the game in a shock and awe fashion right now, in another month, everyone will be past the graphics and will truely see all the bugs and missing gameplay, things that should of been, I for one font like how goveners are in RTW, titles were alot better.

[Red Harvest]

I dont think I owe anyone an apology, considering I have avoided personal attacks in my entire time on this forum.

Oh puhleezzzz! Most of what you were writing not all that long ago was personal attacks, attacks on character, observational skills, play skills, mental state, etc. Many of us took it that way. Now you have done an about-face on your previously stated opinions presented as indisputable fact. I will give you some credit for taking time to understand the TW series better, but I haven't forgotten your claims of "hysteria" either, nor your attempt to paint folks such as myself as liars.

I don't agree that ToranagaSama should have called for an apology either, but I also had some of the same thoughts and kept them to myself.

It would be best to not spend time arguing over who did what when. I won't be calling for apologies, nor do I expect them--and don't be expecting any from the other side either. Let's stick to discussing the features, bugs, problems, pluses, etc. Put the past behind, and move on.

[Morindin]

Oh puhleezzzz! Most of what you were writing not all that long ago was personal attacks, attacks on character, observational skills, play skills, mental state, etc. Many of us took it that way. Now you have done an about-face on your previously stated opinions presented as indisputable fact. I will give you some credit for taking time to understand the TW series better, but I haven't forgotten your claims of "hysteria" either, nor your attempt to paint folks such as myself as liars.

I don't agree that ToranagaSama should have called for an apology either, but I also had some of the same thoughts and kept them to myself.

It would be best to not spend time arguing over who did what when. I won't be calling for apologies, nor do I expect them--and don't be expecting any from the other side either. Let's stick to discussing the features, bugs, problems, pluses, etc. Put the past behind, and move on.

Please, dont treat me like a little kid and put words in my mouth which I never said (liars?, character attacks?, mental state? uhh quotes please?) Right now im really tempted to pull out some PM's from the senior moderators of this board and what they had to say about the matter but for the sake of discussion I wont.

I'd really like to have a discussion in one of these topics without you, and only you, feeling the need to 'put me in my place'.

You know what? I dont think I ever will. Because of this my time here seems to be spent the 'org' experiance pretty crap, ignoring all your shit and holding my 'virtual tongue' in frustration.
There are other TW forums out there where all content is welcomed despite the percieved experiance of the poster being a basis of judgement.

Seeya.

[ToranagaSama]

Please, dont treat me like a little kid and put words in my mouth which I never said (liars?, character attacks?, mental state? uhh quotes please?) Right now im really tempted to pull out some PM's from the senior moderators of this board and what they had to say about the matter but for the sake of discussion I wont.

I'd really like to have a discussion in one of these topics without you, and only you, feeling the need to 'put me in my place'.

You know what? I dont think I ever will. Because of this my time here seems to be spent the 'org' experiance pretty crap, ignoring all your shit and holding my 'virtual tongue' in frustration.
There are other TW forums out there where all content is welcomed despite the percieved experiance of the poster being a basis of judgement.

Seeya.

Morindin,

Please do not leave, rather let us engage in discussion and learn.

leads to and then