MTW after RTW

[Morindin]

Now that the "ohh-ahh" factor has worn off with RTW, I've been playing a succession game of MTW along with a few friends alongside my new RTW campaign.

This is an extremely frustrating experiance. To put it bluntly, MTW makes me want to play RTW, and RTW makes me want to play MTW.

Things I noticed about MTW after going back:

1. The controls suck and its very "cumbersome" trying to move around when you're used to using the arrow keys in RTW. Also the whole left click thing is a pain in the ass, since you could accidently move troops when you're trying to select them. I do like the removal of the pink arrows when moving troops around and the fact you can keep them in formation/facing. Also - NO BUGS!

2. The UI is superior in almost every way to RTW's UI. The unit cards are much easier to see (1280x1024) display much more useful information. The game feels like you've got more cooler options to play with than the RTW UI, which takes up way too much space. Overall (when you get used to the MTW controls again!) its way easier to control your MTW army.

3. RTW battles have way more atmosphere. Graphics obviously, but mainly the sounds. MTW sounds suck compared to RTW. Can't hear arrows whizzing through the air, all your soldiers are silent, marching doesnt sound as cool, etc.

4. Strategy map. The MTW strategy map is very annoying now after RTW and its really hard to tell what the hell you're doing. You cant just glance over all your provinces and see if you're constructing stuff there. However the MTW strategy map has a very cool board game feel to it now.

5. AI. Overall the MTW AI on the battles is PROBABLY better than the RTW AI. On defence the AI in MTW manouvers way more than you see it do in RTW. Strategy map im not so sure, but the MTW strategy map is more simple than the RTW system so the AI doesnt screw up as much. Also the bigger MTW battles (combined stacks) is way more fun.

6. I used to have fun sieging in MTW but not anymore.

7. Movement speeds. In general movement speeds seem better in MTW. Apart from the fact that your guys slide around everywhere (which is point 3, atmosphere) they make more sense.
However its not perfect, cavalry seems too slow charging in MTW but too slow trotting around in RTW.
Also cavalry seems a huge anticlimax now in MTW (altho I dont miss the school of fish effect)
I charged some 66 Knights into some poor 15 odd tired miltia expecting them to be bowled over. But no. My knights just get "stuck" on them killing a couple then hacking away at them for ages before the militia routs. Which brings me to my next point.

8. I really missed the flashing flags for routing units.

9. Bugs. MTW battles go far smoother (especially sieges) without any bugs that want to make you rip your hair out.

10. Voices. This is partly point 3, but the guy for the MTW voices is so much better than the crappy Roman voice actor. He actually sounds his part. Troop voices are way better in MTW too.

11. Killing speed. Melee is vastly slower than RTW but at the same time it looks really stupid now. Large numbers vs Large numbers is way better and units take longer to rout. Large numbers vs small numbers however in MTW is incredably unrealistic and MTW seemingly lacks the snowball effect.
Everyone is complaining that the arrows kill too much in RTW but MTW is the same if not worse (it should be though, more powerful bows etc). I had 20 foot knights standing around being hit by arrow fire. I was concentrating on something else for no more than 20 seconds, come back, and I now have 3 foot knights standing around being hit by arrow fire.

12. There is more depth to MTW tactically. Formations in particular. Different units need different formations for different situations. RTW it doesnt seem to matter what formation you put your units in.

Really, both games feel like they've been made by different companies. MTW feels nothing like RTW. MTW (including the battles) feels like a grand game of chess, more of a strategy game like the oldschool hex based war games. I dont know what RTW feels like, part RTS, part civ game.
The big part MTW is lacking is in the atmosphere department and some clunky controls, but I have to say that if you kept MTW exactly the same, but gave it RTW graphics and sounds - MTW would be the better game.

The frustrating part is RTW could have been this, but it wasnt.

[Edit]I forgot to add, the AI in MTW has way more good generals. You might see one or two good generals in RTW but the AI has literally tons of them in MTW. MTW far far superior here[/Edit]

[Colovion]

true story through and through

[DisruptorX]

Yea, I know exactly what you mean. However, I found that when playing MTW after rome, the controls were simply wonderful. I only needed to click once and didn't need to fight with my men over orders. The left/right click switch messed me up though. I really wish that they had just made RTW a 3d MTW with new skins, it would have been the greatest game ever. Now, medieval doesn't seem quite as impressive, but RTW has me enfuriated at its blatant flaws and inferior controls and AI. What you said about each making you feel like playing the other is exactly it.

Btw, you do use the arrow keys to move arround in mtw....don't you?

[Beirut]

Excellent observations. I mostly feel the same way.

I find the bottom panel too big and looks like an RPG spell & incantation screen. Also, in M:TW, the units usually did what you told them too. I wish R:TW was just like M:TW except with the better graphics and change in eras.

And maybe it's just me (because I am easily confused ) but I HATE the campaign map. All this stuff about "oh, but it's soooo intuitive". It just looks like an RPG screen. I liked the Risk look of the M:TW campaign map.

But the battles in R:TW, aside from a few really annoying things, are great fun!

[DisruptorX]

find the bottom panel too big and looks like an RPG spell & incantation screen.

Actually, I feel that it looks like something else....



Nope, no similarities here, move along...

[Morindin]

Yea, I know exactly what you mean. However, I found that when playing MTW after rome, the controls were simply wonderful. I only needed to click once and didn't need to fight with my men over orders. The left/right click switch messed me up though. I really wish that they had just made RTW a 3d MTW with new skins, it would have been the greatest game ever. Now, medieval doesn't seem quite as impressive, but RTW has me enfuriated at its blatant flaws and inferior controls and AI. What you said about each making you feel like playing the other is exactly it.

Btw, you do use the arrow keys to move arround in mtw....don't you?

Yes I do, but I prefer the straff left/right in RTW.

Im not sure if you can set this up in MTW but I find it more logical to use the keys to move, and the mouse to look, click buttons, etc.

Being a gamer of many genres the typical FPS setup is "wsad" to move and mouse to look, with RTW simulates quite well. MTW is OK when you get used to it, it just takes a bit of getting used to.

Also the camera seems to move sloooowwwwly in MTW even with shift held down, meaning you double click on units more to get over to that side of the battlefield (which means you cant rely on the mouse to look around as much since your clicking!). RTW you could zip around the battlefield quite quickly.

At least the damn tilt works properly in MTW tho.

I guess it comes down to personal preference really. The fact that the MTW controls are bug free is incredably refreshing. No more units ignoring your orders, running/walking when you want them to do the opposite, etc.

[Slaists]

Yes, that was my feeling as well: it seems, as if RTW and MTW were made by completely different companies... or is it: their programmer teams changed completely and the old know-how got forgotten?

[DisruptorX]

I guess it comes down to personal preference really. The fact that the MTW controls are bug free is incredably refreshing. No more units ignoring your orders, running/walking when you want them to do the opposite, etc.

Yea, thats the main thing there. Bugs over shadow all the good points about rome's controls, negating them out completely.


I never had problems with left click everything in MTW before, but now I'm making mistakes with it all the time. However, I miss the camera tilt so much now, and REALLY hate the new "click on ground to focus" method.

[Morindin]

Yes, that was my feeling as well: it seems, as if RTW and MTW were made by completely different companies... or is it: their programmer teams changed completely and the old know-how got forgotten?

Because these games were made in parallel it could be two different teams making two different games.
I dont know and havnt followed the 'scene' long enough. They are undertaking a new project apparently even as they were finishing RTW.

Let's hope its MTW2 but with the MTW gameplay developers and RTW graphics/sound engineers ;)

[andrewt]

The most frustrating part for me in RTW is that the AI overrides the user way too much. If your horse archer wants to skirmish this way and you want to skirmish that way, you have to turn off skirmish mode or the skirmish AI will keep on overriding your orders. Same with fire at will. They'll ignore you and keep firing on whomever they want to fire, not who you want them to fire. Sometimes, they'll fire 1-2 more volleys, follow your orders for 1-2 volleys then go back to their initial target. Grrr.....

[KurnoustheHunter]

OH I agree with many of the comment here.

I've had some infuriating experiences with the controls and lack of unit response.

An example.... I had a few units of Hastati and a few archers fighting off some Gaul warbands. I lose track of part of the battle moving other troops around (Easy to do with these new controls) All of a sudden a warband has moved in right next to my Infantry making a B-line for my archers. I order the infantry to make an intercept course (even though enemy unit is maybe 3-4 man widths away and directly at my flank. My unit takes an ice age to respond.....so I desperately order an attack.

All of a sudden the Gaul unit just hits my flank! wow how manuveorable were they! I couldn't get my boys to do that.

Often I can't even get my infantry to make even 30 degree shifts in facing to plug gaps and protect flanks.....even when the enemy units are 5-6 'unit lengths' away!

Or at times an enemy unit is all most straight in front....offset 10- 20 degree again 5-7 'unit lengths' away. I think to myself....how would they like some Pilum's?...So I order my boys to shot. By the time they even start to get organised to wheel.....and b4 they even dream of shooting.....im getting charged!

In M:TW javelin units were very responsive in letting off a volley just before an enemy charge hit home. Or getting off a volley before making a charge. My legions on the other hand barely function as legionsshould. They have trouble moving when ordered, and move about like crazy with no orders at all or even better when ordered to a particular place and no-where else.

When I got this game I was anticipating using the highly disciplined armies of Rome much more disciplined the the feudal rabble in M:TW. How wrong I was...give me back my highly disciplined peasant and feudal levies over Rome professional armies...

Please Developers, you may have overestimated the powers of feudal discipline but please fix this rabble called the Roman army

[Thoros of Myr]

Really, both games feel like they've been made by different companies. MTW feels nothing like RTW. MTW (including the battles) feels like a grand game of chess, more of a strategy game like the oldschool hex based war games. I dont know what RTW feels like, part RTS, part civ game.
The big part MTW is lacking is in the atmosphere department and some clunky controls, but I have to say that if you kept MTW exactly the same, but gave it RTW graphics and sounds - MTW would be the better game.

The frustrating part is RTW could have been this, but it wasnt.

The frustrating but true conclusion. Good read. My hope lies in heavy patching (CA) and HEAVY modding.

[Medieval Assassin]

Lets just all play STW...

[Red Harvest]

I agree with a lot of what Morindin wrote. There are playing style issue differences, but I see the comparison of MTW to RTW in roughly the same light. There are fewer, "Oooohhh! Aaaaaaahhh!" units in MTW while RTW is full of them (to its detriment.) Ironically, in RTW the foot sloggers, the bread and butter of warfare of the time suffer for this. They become bit part supporting players in my armies where I regularly make decisions like, "I guess I better build/buy two or three infantry units to work the seige equipment." The battle UI in RTW is simply cludgy. That would be less of a problem if battles were fought at reasonable speed. When the enemy begins its charge, I have to pause to issue commands. Otherwise I have almost no way to counter charge.

[Thoros of Myr]

Lets just all play STW...

If only STW didnt have a crash bug on this PC that I'm not able to fix

[Servius]

Yep, gotta agree on all points so far. RTW battle graphics are better, almost everything else is worse. I like that we got a map (but lost the unit tree in the trade). It's just my opinion, but it feels like the superficials (graphics, audio, etc.) were improved while the fundimentals (unit control, game controls, simple modability, etc.) were worsened.

What was it that Macbeth said, "...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." The more like MTW the patches make RTW, the better.

[Midnj]

Well, I am enjoying the single player campaign in Rome. But let's not even talk about multiplayer. MTW for multiplayer, RTW for single player. Best of both worlds.

I am really dissapointed with CA though. They obviously don't give a damn about multiplayer (and haven't in any previous iterations of the franchise) but have no problems slapping "multiplayer support" all over their marketing material.

I would also like to second that the UI in Rome needs a lot of work. I especially hate how I can't organize unit cards how I want them (in terms of where they are in the list) and how we can't hotkey units across groups. Some of us used particularly complex grouping systems for MTW multiplayer to perform complex maneuvers and it's all but impossible to achieve that kind of control over your army in Rome.

[econ21]

Interesting perspective, Morindin. I am not sure how much you played MTW before RTW but I can't agree that RTW only scores by virtue of sounds and graphics (these things mean very little to me), or that the two games don't feel alike.

I played MTW regularly since it came out so naturally I think very highly of it. However, there were a number of negative features that seem absent in RTW. The MTW battle engine might be more to my taste (killing and charge speeds), but the battles themselves were not necessarily better because the AI fielded dire troops (on early) - eg peasants, ballistas, archers - and because the reinforcement issue was a major drag (the first wave could be a challenge, but then you could spend half an hour dealing with dross). I actually have come to like the brisk pace of RTW battles - with MTW, you would be scared of ending a turn late at night, because several battles might errupt that required 3 or more hours to play out manually.

The MTW strategic map was much less involving to me - moving armies round on the RTW campaign map reminds me of the way an army really moves and does not feel like Civ at all (that game had incredibly tedious combat with moving scores of weak units one or two squares at a time). In terms of grand strategy, the ability of the player (only) to get rich in MTW by trade arguably broke the game. Plus the inability of the AI to make peace, coupled with pointless wars sparked off by piracy, made the strategic layer lose some interest.

I don't know how you can say the games don't feel alike - to me the battles and the building elements of all three Total War games are virtually identical in terms of what you do and quite unlike any other games I have played (well, less so the building elements, but the battle engine is still pretty unique).

Maybe I'll feel differently when I've played more RTW, but I found it hard to go back to STW after MTW and suspect the same will be true about leaving RTW for MTW.

[Bhruic]

I'm not sure that the points you raise are any better in RTW than MTW Simon. For example, with the "dire" troops - yes, the AI will build better quality troops in RTW, but because it has issues with grouping them, it ends up with too many small groups wandering around that are easy to take out. Pretty much the exact same issue.

While I will concede that the reinforcements don't take forever, that's generally because there aren't as many units in battle. In the three games I've finished so far, I've only had 2 battles that had reinforcements that had to 'wait' to get on to the field (because I was over the limit). The AI has never had that. So I can't say that it's an improvement in the system so much as it is a way of limiting the system so that it doesn't come up as much. Not really an ideal solution.

And I'm not sure how you can point out the "pointless war" syndrome in MTW and ignore it in RTW. It seems at least as present to me.

Bh

[Boudicca]

I am a long term player of Medieval (since its release) and for me, Medieval had got a lot of AI - Bugs too...

I totally agree on the point, that two different designer teams must have been at work in both games, as Rome is in some points worse than medieval

- I hate these archers killing my field units instead of shooting at the enemy. A good programmer would have stopped the archers from shooting, especially when I´m moving my Infantry forward for assault

- city pathfinding is less than perfect in Rome

- Castle sieges are (even though there are pathfinding problems) much better in Rome total war. Although the AI is not that intelligent, I at least have the feeling, that I have to defend my castle. I´ve seen enough battles in medieval, where I just hat 50 Pikemen in my Castle with a 800+ army striking from outside, just placing itsself in front of the Gates in order to be slaughtered by castle defense

- Medieval had improved a lot by the available mods, I´ve extensively played BKB Super Mod, Fall of Rome, Hellenic and Napoleonic and I think there is room for improvement with Rome by modding too.

I am looking forward towards RTW mods...lets see what´s out there!

[foop]

This is partly point 3, but the guy for the MTW voices is so much better than the crappy Roman voice actor. He actually sounds his part.

IIRC, a lot of the voice work on MTW was done by Sean Pertwee. He also played deputy sheriff Hugh Beringar in a UK TV adaptation of Ellis Peter's Brother Cadfael novels, so he has an authentic mediaeval pedigree.

I agree with an awful lot of your points. After finishing my first short RTW campaign last night, I'm sorely tempted to go back to MTW. Last night, in my final battle, I lost two units of missile cavalry because they wouldn't stop running around in a &*^!*&** Cantabrian circle and run away like I wanted them to.

[Slaists]

Yea, thats the main thing there. Bugs over shadow all the good points about rome's controls, negating them out completely.


I never had problems with left click everything in MTW before, but now I'm making mistakes with it all the time. However, I miss the camera tilt so much now, and REALLY hate the new "click on ground to focus" method.

the camera tilt actually is there: first, you have to unlock it in the options. there are a few for the camera: by default, it comes to be locked. once you unlock it in the options you have to unlock it in the battle as well: press SHIFT+INSERT and the "-"/"+" keys start to work properly :)

[ToranagaSama]

I CANNOT believe what I've just read.

Moridin, of all people, in essence, just said that MTW is *overall* a better experience, and, I believe he said A BETTER GAME!!!! (Figuratively not literally)

Sir, you have been one of the more aggressive RTW is the greatest thing since Hotcakes proponents, and now this.

I do believe you owe, at least, one of the Org members and apology, imvho.

I'd love to see your take on the RTW vs MedMod. There's a version for MTW plus Patch, I think its version 3.14. Why not load it up and give it a go, and if you happen to be passing the Bargain Bin, pickup VI, Patch it, and install the latest MedMod.

If your post represents your impression of vanilla MTW vs. RTW, then after playing VI plus the MedMod, then you'll fully comprehend what the Hardcore players have been whinning about.

I concur completely, the best of both worlds would be the RTW Strap Map (with a few adjustments) married to the MTW Battle Engine. Even sans the 3D battle field, units and sound effects, it would be a better experience; and please include the RTW sieges, which are infinitely better than MTW.

I might argue a point or two, but that was an EXCELLENT post.

[DisruptorX]

You do realize that in his other thread he said that he enjoyed MTW's features more than Rome's and the he was being the devil's advocate? He said himself that he was arguing just for the sake of argument....

[Lord Ovaat]

after playing VI plus the MedMod, then you'll fully comprehend what the Hardcore players have been whinning about.

You got it, TS. I can't help but try and compare RTW with MedMod, 'cause that's what I played for the last six months. I will say one thing, though. It's a darned good thing RTW doesn't have the homeland concept. Could you imagine trying to send replacement troops from Italy to Britain in RTW? TALK ABOUT TEDIUM! One of my biggest grips is still the SLOW speed of movement in the campaign map. Yea, we could zip a gov or unit from Wessex to Tripoli in one turn. That's a year, folks. Now it takes about six years, or 12 turns. (More or less) Yeah, I can see it now,

"Lord Ovaat, you have been appointed governor of Tripoli. Your boat leaves tomorrow."

"Really? Sorry, but at my age, I don't think I'd survive the trip. Try finding a sixteen-year-old."

Actually, campaign speed, camera angle, and a few other little things are my only complaints with RTW. Most everything else, I like, or at least am getting used to. Trade, seiges, etc. are far more realistic. They really needed to get a quick patch out to fix the multiplayer, but if they want to keep the vastly larger single player community happy, they need to address some of the issues. This game will only prosper with the single player experience being enjoyable. They should know that. That's where the money is.

[ChaosLord]

Before I got RTW I played a few campaigns of MTW using the latest MedMod to prepare. So I went directly from MedMod MTW to RTW and I must say RTW is still the better game. While their are bugs and annoying AI results overall the game is way beyond MTW. And no, I don't mean the graphics, I don't care one bit about them.

I mean in how cities are managed, population being important, fortifications/watchtowers being useful, the WIDE variety of unit types. I mean look at MTW with most factions using the same units, then look at RTW. The MedMod was better with this but still not as good. Now besides for a few similar factions playing a different faction FEELS like a different faction.

Theres been alot said about the battle speed and the interface which I agree with some of it. The interface itself is fine, except for camera controls and not being able to assign a unit to multiple groups. As for the battle speed it didn't bother me as much as other people. But thats because even in MTW I relied alot on my intial formation setup rather then alot of manuerving. However for those who like fine control I realize the speed is annoying. I think the speed should be dropped down to MTWs with the current speed being accessible through arcade battles.

If theres people who still want the current speed they could just speed it up like in MTW. I do have some other annoyances with the game, such as the slow speed of movement armies/ships have. Ships should move 2-3x as fast as they do, and armies should move at maybe 2x the speed. Thats of course just general game issues.

RTW will really shine through mods just like it was with MTW. I mean, we all know how laughably easy MTW was without mods, i'm finding RTW harder in comparison because of the greater focus on managing cities. Thats just my thoughts though not necesarrily the same as everyone elses.

[Arakasi]

I've played both extensively and right now I agree that due to bugs and issues that in battle MTW is superior. What needs to be done is several fixes.

1) Pathfinding bugs in cities and rivers
2) Slow down of killing rate
3) Slow down of movement speed
4) Fixing some AI concerns
4a) Have bigger stacks for AI armies (more large armies, less small armies)
4b) Work on some battle AI concerns such as defending the town square
4c) Balance some factions more
4d) Maneuvering in battles. I'd like to see enemy armies stay more cohesive
5) UI issues, although really for me this doesn't bother me much. The main thing I have problems here is with is the grouping commands.

I think it is hard to compare the two since MTW has been extensively patched and modded. The original MTW had its problems too. I like Ovaat and ChaosLord feel that RTW has much more potential than MTW. All the things that you can do in battle then are still there. Morale, fatigue, flank attacks, etc. It is just the current bugs such as movement speed and killing speed problems that are affecting this. Siege battles are much superior. And the Campaigns are miles ahead, even with the small army problems. I post also at TWC and a lot of these issues are being looked at. They've made some good inroads into the movement speed and killing speeds (even found out how it would be possible to change animations to attack slower), and I think have figured out a way to make huge fleets less prevalent.

Most of these things can be done by the modding communities. But I feel a couple things need to be fixed at CA. That being the pathfinding, UI and the AI fixes. I think everything else can be done with modding. The game looks to be incredibly moddable, even moreso than MTW. There is even good evidence of there being a campaign editor, which would be sweet.

As for Morindin, there is no need for him to apologize. He was not attacking fellow board members. He was just posting his opinion on the games.

[Slaists]

I am actually not sure about the killing speed: I believe, it's largerly due to much higher charge factors in RTW relative to MTW. Once the charge has worn off, the units tend to slug it out unless there are large differences in defense/attack between the two sides. I zoomed in on a battle where I had a bunch of armorerd hoplites surrounded by hastatii: it took hastatii a while to kill them off...

[DisruptorX]

I'd have to agree with an earlier poster that the campaign map in Rome is not "superior" to that in MTW, its just different. I liked the "Risk" layout.

Also, I play MTW slowly and deliberately, so it isn't really too easy, as the computers generally have far more men than me.

My main problem with rome is that it is almost all icing, there is very little cake.

[Arakasi]

Disruptor, I don't understand what you mean by its all icing and very little cake. All the things from MTW are still there. Things like morale, flanking, fatigue, etc are still there in the battles. They are just plagued by some bugs and balancing issues atm. I'd like to hear what things MTW had (the cake as you said it) that aren't in RTW. I can see things that were implemented differently, but I haven't seen that they are removed.