MTW after RTW

[ToranagaSama]

Now that the "ohh-ahh" factor has worn off with RTW, I've been playing a succession game of MTW along with a few friends alongside my new RTW campaign.

This is an extremely frustrating experiance. To put it bluntly, MTW makes me want to play RTW, and RTW makes me want to play MTW.

I think you're quite right, the "ohh-ahh" factor in RTW is HUGE! Actually, its blinding in many ways.

I was telling my bother the other day, that RTW is *overwhelming*, just like MTW was extremely overwhelming in comparison to STW. Its just that going from STW to MTW involved dealing with so many open *choices* mostly as a result of the much larger map. I remember loading MTW for the first and having no clue where to begin.

RTW is different, I told him that the overwhelming factor is not with the open choices as with MTW, but with the difficulty in comprehending the *underpinnings* (Economy, etc.) of the game, in the face of all the graphical changes, including the UI. The grahics combined with the UI are like a bright like shone into your eyes while your trying to drive down the road.

1. The controls suck and its very "cumbersome" trying to move around when you're used to using the arrow keys in RTW. Also the whole left click thing is a pain in the ass, since you could accidently move troops when you're trying to select them. I do like the removal of the pink arrows when moving troops around and the fact you can keep them in formation/facing. Also - NO BUGS!

I know a lot of people seemed to have a problem selecting the wrong unit(s), but I never had that problem. Lucky I guess.

I'm a bit confused, do you mean that in MTW you have to use Left-Click, both for *selecting* and to click on the spot you want a unit to move or attack?

If so, then, yes, on occasion this would happen to me, but not to any great detrimental effect.

The thing with right-clicking is that for heavy computer users and/or heavy Windows users, there is a natural dispostition to the manner in which Left and Right clicking is used. Right-clicking just doesn't feel natural, and goes against years indoctrinated use. I have to mentally force myself to right-click at times.

Is it reversable in RTW? I like to switch right-clicking for selecting and left-clicking for move/attack.

2. The UI is superior in almost every way to RTW's UI. The unit cards are much easier to see (1280x1024) display much more useful information. The game feels like you've got more cooler options to play with than the RTW UI, which takes up way too much space. Overall (when you get used to the MTW controls again!) its way easier to control your MTW army.

NUFF SAID! Total Agreement.

3. RTW battles have way more atmosphere. Graphics obviously, but mainly the sounds. MTW sounds suck compared to RTW. Can't hear arrows whizzing through the air, all your soldiers are silent, marching doesnt sound as cool, etc.

Here we disagree. STW was the best of the series in terms of Atmosphere, and I prefer MTW to RTW.

I'm not necessarily impressed with the sound effects of RTW, most of which add nothing to gameplay. It's not as if you can hear an Army sneaking up on ya, or something equivalent.

What is really different between STW/MTW and RTW, in terms of atmosphere is map Terrain. In STW and to a bit lesser degree in MTW, Terrain played a greater part in the game.

All I need say is Shiano (is that right?), and all the STW vets will smile...

In STW virtually, if not literally, each Province had a distinctive and very effecting terrain map. When considering whether to move into a Province, you'd best give thought to not only the opposing army and it's composition, BUT also the Terrain you'd be fighting upon. Terrain was either going to be an advantage or a dis-advantage, rarely did Terrain have a *neutral* effect.

In MTW, Terrain was a couple of degrees less effecting, in terms of the outcome of a battle, but it still was and could be used to effect. Where MTW improved upon STW was in having multiple terrain maps for each province.

In RTW, Terrain, so far in my experience, is mostly a non-factor, MUCH less so than with MTW. So far, it hasn't caused me to win or lose a battle, and only in two did I notice a mild effect. Advancing my troops sideways upon an upward sloping hill, the troops moving upon the higher portion moved *slower* than those moving upon the lower portion. Yet, I didn't notice any any determining *Fatigue* effect, both sides performing equally well in battle. This is noticeably different than with MTW, and degrees different than STW. Nagato (sp?) going up such a hill would be completely useless.

4. Strategy map. The MTW strategy map is very annoying now after RTW and its really hard to tell what the hell you're doing. You cant just glance over all your provinces and see if you're constructing stuff there. However the MTW strategy map has a very cool board game feel to it now.

You may have something here, but I still haven't figure out what all those icons mean in RTW, so at this point I have no opinion. If you're correct then this is a step up, but the way I see it, even with the icons you *still* need to check each City/Province before End Turn.

As far as feel goes, I like both equally as well. Though, I saw something the other night that was VERY AMAZING and hinted at the potential of the RTW map. I've yet to see a post to mention this potential, and I'm waiting to check it out more. I don't think ANY of us have, as yet, grasped the FULL potentional the new Strat Map. If they can't get this Map work for Campaign Multiplay....

5. AI. Overall the MTW AI on the battles is PROBABLY better than the RTW AI. On defence the AI in MTW manouvers way more than you see it do in RTW. Strategy map im not so sure, but the MTW strategy map is more simple than the RTW system so the AI doesnt screw up as much. Also the bigger MTW battles (combined stacks) is way more fun.

THIS is what we Veterans have been saying from Day 1 of the Demo!

I can still remember my first true campaign battle in STW. The armies facing each other from a far distance, slowly advancing, and all of a sudden the AI sends some units racing to my left manuevering them into perfect flanking position. I was like, oh yes! This is going to be better than any game I've played before.

Then came MTW, and I still remember that first true campaign battle. Similar circumstances, armies advancing slowly, then wam! The AI sends, somewhat expectedly, not only units out to the left flank, but SIMULTAENOUSLY to the RIGHT flank. I was like, OH SH*T!

In RTW, I've yet to have an OH SH*T! moment.

6. I used to have fun sieging in MTW but not anymore.

MTW sieges, to me, were never great fun. I always wondered why some seem to enjoy them so. Though, I admit, I enjoyed using the Catapult and watching the walls crumble. That was the best part, for me. Nice effect by CA!

I said it before I think RTW s/b changed to Seige: Total War, cause its ALL about the Sieges. IMO, I think the Kill Speed is too fast, in terms, of sieges. City Gates are like meatgrinders. The biggest I've assualted, so far, has been a Large Town, so I've yet to see what more of the game has to offer in this area.

7. Movement speeds. In general movement speeds seem better in MTW. Apart from the fact that your guys slide around everywhere (which is point 3, atmosphere) they make more sense.
However its not perfect, cavalry seems too slow charging in MTW but too slow trotting around in RTW.
Also cavalry seems a huge anticlimax now in MTW (altho I dont miss the school of fish effect)
I charged some 66 Knights into some poor 15 odd tired miltia expecting them to be bowled over. But no. My knights just get "stuck" on them killing a couple then hacking away at them for ages before the militia routs. Which brings me to my next point.

I don't know about "sliding around", don't recall such, but, AGAIN, this is what the Veterans have been saying from Day 1. You VEHEMENTLY opposed what we were saying, and DEFINITIVELY presented your *opinion*, though it wasn't presented as *opinion*, but as if it were FACT.

This is what upset a number of us.

Pleased to see that you now comprehend what we've been stating.

Personally, I've never comprehended why so many had such a problem with MTW's calvalry. I never did. You get, what I guess could be termed as the "bowling over" effect in RTW, but to me its a yawnnnn.... and doesn't look very realistic, but that's jmo.

In any event, I never used my Cav as *Line* troops anyway. I preserve them for Pursuit, and only used Knights as emergency reserves and/or, only when the outcome was obvious, to tip an even battle to my favor. Though, I often used my Cav in a deversionary manner.

I prefer the Gameplay effect MTW Cav have vs the Gameplay effect of RTW.

8. I really missed the flashing flags for routing units.

You mean the way they are in RTW? I've gotten used to the RTW way, but still prefer MTW flashing Cards. I think a combo would be best.

9. Bugs. MTW battles go far smoother (especially sieges) without any bugs that want to make you rip your hair out.

RTW's disappearing Generals and Armies are pissing me off! This is an obvious *dumbing down* of the game. I think the "Casual Gamer" wasn't adept enough to annihilate the AI's armies, so they came up with this! It should be OPTIONABLE.

10. Voices. This is partly point 3, but the guy for the MTW voices is so much better than the crappy Roman voice actor. He actually sounds his part. Troop voices are way better in MTW too.

The Euros seem especially bothered by this. I wonder if they'd feel better if the guy had a British or Aussie accent?!

Anyway, in general, I think the voice acting is sub-par, at best.

11. Killing speed. Melee is vastly slower than RTW but at the same time it looks really stupid now. Large numbers vs Large numbers is way better and units take longer to rout. Large numbers vs small numbers however in MTW is incredably unrealistic and MTW seemingly lacks the snowball effect.
Everyone is complaining that the arrows kill too much in RTW but MTW is the same if not worse (it should be though, more powerful bows etc). I had 20 foot knights standing around being hit by arrow fire. I was concentrating on something else for no more than 20 seconds, come back, and I now have 3 foot knights standing around being hit by arrow fire.

Not sure what to say. First, its been a LONG time since I've played vanilla; Second, what do you mean by "snowball effect"?; Archers ARE more effective in RTW. My RTW archers have gotten 150 kills or better, and I haven't perfected using them!!! In MTW playing Expert, it would take a good player and 2 units of archers to rack up such kills. With the MedMod on Expert, you'd have to be an EXPERT to rack up such kills.

There have been MANY discusions over the years as to the effectiveness of Archers. Many put VERY little stock in their use during crucial battles. For me, they are my stock and trade and form the CORE of my MTW army. I have posted virtual disertations on their effective use. It takes SKILL to use Archers to maximum effect.

With RTW, the necessary skill level has been greatly lowered, and I believe this was CA's design, in order to make the game "more accessible", read that easiser and simpler.

12. There is more depth to MTW tactically. Formations in particular. Different units need different formations for different situations. RTW it doesnt seem to matter what formation you put your units in.

AGAIN, do you here the Veterans WHINNING???!!! We, I, have been say this ALL along, day 1 of the demo. RTW precludes the use of HIGH TACTICS. I'm a bit miffed, as it took me approximately a YEAR to become what I consider a master.

In MTW and STW, a *skilled* player could use Tactics (formations, manueverings, terrain) to overcome (significant) numerical, weaponry and armour, disadvantages.

I'm still early in my progross with RTW, so I have to hedge my comment, as perhaps at higher Difficulty and futher in the game, things change; but as I've experienced so far. RTW requires a MUCH lower Tactical skill level. Again, I believe this is how they intended.

Really, both games feel like they've been made by different companies. MTW feels nothing like RTW. MTW (including the battles) feels like a grand game of chess, more of a strategy game like the oldschool hex based war games. I dont know what RTW feels like, part RTS, part civ game.
The big part MTW is lacking is in the atmosphere department and some clunky controls, but I have to say that if you kept MTW exactly the same, but gave it RTW graphics and sounds - MTW would be the better game.

The frustrating part is RTW could have been this, but it wasnt.

You know I recall some of the noobs screaming "its a different game!". I believe they were right. It is different, and I believe that's just how it has to be taken.

Yeah, for me, if they put the RTW Camp Map with the MTW Battle Engine, it would be the best game of all. Oh, yeah, and better, more terrain derived maps.

[Edit]I forgot to add, the AI in MTW has way more good generals. You might see one or two good generals in RTW but the AI has literally tons of them in MTW. MTW far far superior here[/Edit]

Dude, your next step s/b to give the MedMod version 3.14 ago and report your observations. I'd be interested.

Finally to search the Bargin Bins and pick up a copy of Viking Invaison, patch it, and tack on the MedMod.

I'd *really* love to hear that.

All in all, yours was an good evaluation and an excellent post, but you gotta admit that its what we've been saying all along, and you have been opposing us.