Castle defense additions - are they worth building?

**bretwalda** · 10-12-2004, 14:08

I realized, that the defense additions (like ballista tower) can only be built with the corresponding size of castle. I can't recall exactly which one belongs to which, but they are unavailable if I built the next level castle and new ones can be built.

I realized, that these additions are very good when defending and they are relatively cheap. However should I build all additions at all level or is this just a waste of money as building the next level of castle (like citadel) will 'erase' these additions?

How is that?

**Procrustes** · 10-12-2004, 16:41

I've wondered about this, too. I've come to the conclusion that it's not worth the money if I'm thinking of upgrading the castle any time soon, or if it is unlikely to be attacked (ie it's not on my borders.) The only time I bother any more is for the "outposts" on the frontiers of my empires. I build big on the corners (use those provinces for big garrisons and troop production), then salt the edges with smaller upgraded forts/keeps with garrisons (use them mostly for agriculture and/or trade and to produce ships and/or low level troops.) If I own enough land, I'll keep most of my troops one province back so that I won't provoke and arms race and so I can counterattack any sneaky border crossings.

Personally, I hate assaulting castles that have catapult towers - those things winnow down my attackers every time.

**HicRic** · 10-12-2004, 19:15

I find any castle defense additions to be a total waste of money. I've never seen the AI attack my castle, they only sit there and try to starve me out. So those additions will never get any use in battle!

Unless you get the AI attacking your castles a lot?

**Ludens** · 10-12-2004, 19:20

Building the next level of castle won't erase the additional defences, it includes them. In other words: if you build a fortress, it includes both the citadel upgrades (barbican and demi-culverin towers), whether or not you have built them before. This way you can get gunpowder castle defences even before gunpowder is invented! So, if you are going to upgrade you castle soon, don't bother building the upgrades. A possible exception is the motte (fort-level) because it gives you Vikings Landsmen in the regular MTW campaign (in Norway, Sweden and Denmark, if you have VI), gaining you a very good unit for a small upgrade.

**bretwalda** · 10-12-2004, 20:22

I am not sure if I understand correctly: "it includes them" means, if you build the next level castle, you get the improvements for free with the castle upgrade?

Originally Posted by Ludens

Building the next level of castle won't erase the additional defences, it includes them. In other words: if you build a fortress, it includes both the citadel upgrades (barbican and demi-culverin towers), whether or not you have built them before. This way you can get gunpowder castle defences even before gunpowder is invented! So, if you are going to upgrade you castle soon, don't bother building the upgrades. A possible exception is the motte (fort-level) because it gives you Vikings Landsmen in the regular MTW campaign (in Norway, Sweden and Denmark, if you have VI), gaining you a very good unit for a small upgrade.

**el_slapper** · 10-13-2004, 16:11

Originally Posted by bretwalda

I am not sure if I understand correctly: "it includes them" means, if you build the next level castle, you get the improvements for free with the castle upgrade?

Indeed.

Lone imporvements that COULD be meaningful are once you've your fortress..... In several campaigns, I've been attacked in a castle just once, so I simply don't build them.

**Adrian II** · 10-12-2004, 22:56

Originally Posted by HicRic

Unless you get the AI attacking your castles a lot?

In my experience, reappearing Popes always attack your strongholds since his Haughtiness is in such a hurry to spread the Gospel. It really pays off (both strategically and fun-wise) to prepare garrisons and castle defenses as you await their reappearance. I like to carefully garrison these castles. Usually one unit of pavise Arbalesters, one serious Cavalry unit and some elite foot soldiers allow you to "hold out" for at least three years as well as enabling you to put up a proper defense in case of attack.

The real fun is in sallying forth during the siege battle. Popes come in various hard-scripted guises. You know the Pope who resurrects with a s***load of handgunners and arquebusiers? His first attack wave will consist of spears and militia. If you manage to hold these off with your Pavise Arbalesters plus the usual treats of boiling oil, catapults and the like, the next wave will consist of hordes of handgunners and arquebusiers who start circling your castle with no apparent aim. Just open the gate and counter-attack with your Cavalry. You can kill hundreds of them before you withdraw the horsies to prevent them from running into spear reinforcements. Repeat if necessary. You'll lose half of your horses, but as a reward they get a valour bonus which comes in useful in case they manage to break through the gates. I've managed to rout Papal armies of 3000+ with such garrisons in combination with good defenses. I always play Expert, in case you wonder.

**HicRic** · 10-13-2004, 21:52

Originally Posted by AdrianII

In my experience, reappearing Popes always attack your strongholds since his Haughtiness is in such a hurry to spread the Gospel. It really pays off (both strategically and fun-wise) to prepare garrisons and castle defenses as you await their reappearance. I like to carefully garrison these castles. Usually one unit of pavise Arbalesters, one serious Cavalry unit and some elite foot soldiers allow you to "hold out" for at least three years as well as enabling you to put up a proper defense in case of attack.

The real fun is in sallying forth during the siege battle. Popes come in various hard-scripted guises. You know the Pope who resurrects with a s***load of handgunners and arquebusiers? His first attack wave will consist of spears and militia. If you manage to hold these off with your Pavise Arbalesters plus the usual treats of boiling oil, catapults and the like, the next wave will consist of hordes of handgunners and arquebusiers who start circling your castle with no apparent aim. Just open the gate and counter-attack with your Cavalry. You can kill hundreds of them before you withdraw the horsies to prevent them from running into spear reinforcements. Repeat if necessary. You'll lose half of your horses, but as a reward they get a valour bonus which comes in useful in case they manage to break through the gates. I've managed to rout Papal armies of 3000+ with such garrisons in combination with good defenses. I always play Expert, in case you wonder.

Ahh. The only re-appearing pope I've had was in my first game, and I had a large army on hand to deal with them before any castles could be attacked. Still, it's worht pointing out that 99% of your castles probably won't ever make use of the improvements.

Unless-I don't remember-they add to the time your castle can survive under seige? I think some of them do, actually! In which case, if you get seiges happening a lot then they'd be useful!

**Ldvs** · 10-14-2004, 16:30

Originally Posted by HicRic

I find any castle defense additions to be a total waste of money. I've never seen the AI attack my castle, they only sit there and try to starve me out. So those additions will never get any use in battle!

Unless you get the AI attacking your castles a lot?

I find the Mongols especially prone to assaulting castles. Whenever I play an eastern faction, I upgrade as quickly as possible to the castle level with its upgrades. Even though they managed to force the gates, they would lose at least half of their army.

**HicRic** · 10-14-2004, 16:46

Ahh-in my games, the Mongols get wiped out before my faction reaches them (if I start far away) or I'm there to greet them and I wipe them out in short order before they get a chance to seige.

I suppose I've underestimated castle improvements-the trouble is, I've played MTW so much that even on expert I don't have much trouble winning the battles, so the AI don't get a shot at my castles. A shame, as I enjoy the seige battles (I sometimes play them in custom battles).

**bretwalda** · 10-14-2004, 17:13

@Ldvs The problem in letting the Mongols (or anybody else) siege my castles is that then you lose the province and some facilities are destroyed in the process... and I dont like that. I have difficulty building them up maybe because I still try to build too many things in too many provinces.

Anyway, Mongols are not that easy for me, especially when I dont get them to fight me across a river.

@HicRic: Do you win because you can get the upper hand with even inferior troops because of your tactical skills or your troops are just good enough to prevail - attributed to your strategic skills?