Testudo Tactics

[Old Celt]

Hah hah, my father was a drill instructor. You think you could hold a 22# shield over your head for 4 minutes without getting tired do you? Hee hee, I'll take that bet! He would routinely punish recruits by making them hold their 7 to 8 pound rifles over their heads, and boy they didn't last long. Everything seems easy when SOMEONE ELSE is doing it.

[Kraxis]

Hah hah, my father was a drill instructor. You think you could hold a 22# shield over your head for 4 minutes without getting tired do you? Hee hee, I'll take that bet! He would routinely punish recruits by making them hold their 7 to 8 pound rifles over their heads, and boy they didn't last long. Everything seems easy when SOMEONE ELSE is doing it.

Yes, but I think he was following the other post that said something about the shield resting on the helmet (which makes very good sense as the upper shield is close to the upper edge of the front shields). And resting 22 lbs on your head with something in between and a hand that supports it, well it isn't that hard. With training it should be possible to do for extended periods. Just look at those tribal women that carry much heavier loads on their heads, even without the support of their hands. I can't believe they are stronger than fit and trained men, but they might have a better balance (which I think evens out the supporting hand).

[Simetrical]

Did shields really weigh 22 lbs., anyway? I really kinda doubt they did, but I may be wrong. They were only made out of wood, weren't they? This page, at least, says that North American wood varies from 17.5-64.9 lbs./cu. ft.—or, in more conventional terms, 0.28-1.03 g/cm^3. This page lists the dimensions of a typical scutum as being around 37-42" × 24-33" × .25-.38", for a volume of 222-526 cu. in. Taking the average values for density and volume, we end up with 485 cu. in. = 7948 cm^3 × 0.66 g/cm^3 = ~5.2 kg, or 11 pounds. Which means, in other words, that I spent all that time to establish that, giving myself a healthy margin of error, 22# may or may not be correct. Hooray.

Maybe it would have been better to just look at the Legio XX page, which (now that it occurred to me to do it) says that the Fayum shield (from the 1st century BCE) weighed 22 lbs., and the Dura Europas shield (from about 250 CE) weighed about 12. Hmm. That was . . . stupid of me. I guess we have our answer, though, which is that the shields probably did weigh in the vicinity of 22 pounds at the time of RTW's later legionaries. Now I just need to find something that weighs 22 lbs. and see how long I can keep it balanced on my head before I fall over.

-Simetrical

[Kraxis]

The wood used was fairly heavy and hard (the middle layer was softer) making for a quite resilient shield. Also the shields were often given a metal rim and metal strengtheners in the shapes of 'L's near the corners. Add to this the hide covering, the glue (to keep the layered wood together) and the central spine (of wood), I think that should add up quite nicely.

It is interesting to note that the aspis of the hoplite was not even as heavy, being a few lbs lighter... Those legionaries must have been quite strong and fit (but then again they were normally farmers or later pros).

[vs the world]

...resting 22 lbs on your head with something in between and a hand that supports it, well it isn't that hard. With training it should be possible to do for extended periods.

and



I think that the way they distribute the weight of the shield would have allowed them to last a little longer than say, four minutes. As well as taking into consideration the physical training they would have received...

[Productivity]

Lift your hand so that it points straight out to your side horizontally, fist it, and stay still for your 4 minutes without moving your hand even a bit.

It WILL get tired.

Yep, if you ever do weights you will find that the three most tiring exercises (of the more basic ones) are raises and overhead presses.

Liftign a shield above your head would tire you very quickly.

[A.Saturnus]

I`ve done a little test of the missile defence of the testudo. I put an Urban Cohort on flat grassland in the fire of two units Pharao´s Bowmen. Unit size was large, difficulty medium. In standard formation the Cohort was routed after it lost about 60 men. In testudo the Cohort lost 2 men untill the Bowmen ran out of ammo.

[Simetrical]

Liftign a shield above your head would tire you very quickly.

Yeah, but you aren't. You're resting the shield on your head. This wouldn't tire you the slightest bit (although it might give you a headache if you weren't wearing a helmet, which the legionaries were). The force is basically transferred straight to the ground via your skeleton—you only get tired when you use your muscles, and the only function muscles would serve here is to balance you. Balancing with a shield on your head is, if anything, less taxing than balancing with one on your arm. If you were holding something in the air, on the other hand, your muscles would have to exert themselves constantly so that your arm wouldn't fall.

Testudo should have no effect on stamina—standing still is testudo should actually refresh you, as standing still normally does.

-Simetrical

[Productivity]

Yeah, but you aren't. You're resting the shield on your head. This wouldn't tire you the slightest bit (although it might give you a headache if you weren't wearing a helmet, which the legionaries were). The force is basically transferred straight to the ground via your skeleton—you only get tired when you use your muscles, and the only function muscles would serve here is to balance you. Balancing with a shield on your head is, if anything, less taxing than balancing with one on your arm. If you were holding something in the air, on the other hand, your muscles would have to exert themselves constantly so that your arm wouldn't fall.

Testudo should have no effect on stamina—standing still is testudo should actually refresh you, as standing still normally does.

-Simetrical

You still have to stabilise it though, see the above pictures, how they have their arms up? Try standing like that for five minutes, not holding anything... Your arms will get tired. Now imagine having to constantly adjust the shield and you can see why it would tire you.

[jullii caesar]

I know tustedo wont protected your men from catupult fire but does it protected your men from ballista?

[LordKhaine]

I'm imagine it would actually increase the damage done. The shield wont give any protection against such a large bolt. And in a testudo the men are very tightly packed together, so you're even more likely to get a "man-kebab" effect.

[Soulforged]

The truth is that the testudo was maked just to protect your self while aproching an enemy's walls and when you know that you will be heavely fired by arrows on an open field. I didn't notice them to tire so quickly, you have to use them correctly. The fact is that you have to put them standing and don't move them at all, unless you want to approach to a wall, then moved them in standard an when you see that you are on the fire line change them to testudo and keep walking, they usually will get warmed up or at least winded, not much more, and i proved it. The only think i don't like about it's implementation is that you can't use it while holding ladders or siege towers or even rams, wich in fact would be the most useful approach to this formation. I repeat if you stand still it will tire but is not that quick, and it's realistic, and as far as i can tell it worked fine for me, when the enemy is out of ammo just get back to the normal formation and wait idle until you recover your breath.

[antisocialmunky]

Sorry to continue an old arguement, but couldn't you balance it with one hand so you can periodically rest the other? Or both, it is curved and resting on two people's heads.

That said, is there anyone who has tried a testudo with a bunch of reinactors?

Reinactors or riot police if you really think about it. The closest thing oyu can get to seeing an actual Roman battle is to watch American or Canadian riot police disperse crowds. They do use some of the same tactics and similiar equipment and they're the only people who are professional formation fighters anymore. You can find images of riot police using a varient of the testudo formation to advance while deflecting bottles, rocks, and molotovs.

[Rodion Romanovich]

No, it's useless mainly because of the fact that if the unit loses one man while walking in testudo formation, the entire formation has to stop, and it takes half a minute for them to reshape a testudo so they can move on. Usually they take more casualties during that minute and therefore they usually end up not being able to walk in testudo.

I also get less casualties and less fatigue by running through missiles than from walking with testudo. Only place I think testudo could be could is if you form testudo with ONE unit and move it ahead of your line to attract missile fire. If the enemy attack, you send the rest of your line forward. Usually a skilled opponent would however make sure to do hit-and-run attacks against the testudo legionary, and force your cavalry into the missile rain, or tire your troops by making them move forward to engage the raiders, only to have to move back again to avoid the missiles they were kept back from by the testudo unit. So in conclusion, the testudo seems useless in all situations I can think of, unless you're fighting AI in a wooden castle assault where the enemy have more missiles. It's a good way of making them waste all missiles by shooting at one cohort in testudo, then you move in with your own missiles, rams, cavalry and everything else you have...

[nameless]

If the walls have archers on them, I usually place a few "spare" cohorts in Testudeo near the wall. This way the archers and towers automatically target those cohorts while the others are pushing their ladders or towers to the walls. I hardly ever need to send another cohort up the wall unless needed which in this case would be gladiators or something.

For other purposes I dunno, it would be better though if we had more formations to work with the romans, I remember reading an Asterix comic about it, yes I know it's a comic but the writer noted something about showing you some other roman tactics. They had more than just one formation, the Testudeo.

[Gaius Magnus]

Alright, who ate beans last night!?!?!!!???

I have found that testudo is useless against towers. Haven't really tried it against archers, I just move my men out of range.

[Simetrical]

We need a gravedigger smiley.

-Simetrical

[Afro Thunder]

Soulforged, could you please practice your necromancy on other subjects that aren't threads in this forum?

[Joe_Nvidio828]

ive NEVER used testudo seriously in any battle. Ive only ever used it to see what it looks like maybe twice. hmmm, maybe i'll find a use for it yet. i'll try.