How to use Hastati and Principes effectively?

[caspian]

They don't charge when you want them to
They take forever to aim those damn pilum
They're not spearmen so not as effective in defense
They can indeed push seige equipment but not all battles are fought on the walls...

I give up already

[Bob the Insane]

For me the only difference between the two is that the Principes are better...

I place them on fire at will and sometimes guard mode as well (but the jury is still out on the effectiveness of guard mode) and I march then up to the enemy close enough so when they stop they throw their pilum, then when they are done throwing all their pilum simply get them to attack... The trick is to get your line close enough to throw but not so close they provke a counter charge...

If I need to force them to engage (in an emergency) I was use Alt to force a melee attack so they don't mess around with the pilum and get stuck in straight away.

[MonkeyMan]

I do the same as bob, I use the 'alt' key to make sure they don't use the plium, especially if i have a few units in the same area, IMHO the use of the plium is outweighed a lot of the time by the fact that they don't get an effective charge if they use them (unless the enemy you are attacking is just sat there doing nothing). I wouldn't put them onto fire at will either. From what i have seen, on fire at will, if they break an enemy, rather than pursue them they throw plium at them first. So say 2-3 men survive to flee and then run through another unit of yours to escape they then get 100+ plium thrown at them most of which end up in your own mens backs.

[Basileus]

I started my second campaign as the romans last night, Julii hard/hard and nothing seems to be able to stop my hastati..with the gauls i try not to use the pillum so often cause they charge the moment you get close, so ALT attack and flank with my general.

[Colovion]

Gaurd mode is awesome for stoping enemy charges. Set the Hastati and Princeps in deep formation on Gaurd and they'll be able to bog Cav down enough to get some whacks in. I use ALT for attacking unless I know I have time to throw the pilum.

[econ21]

In my Julii campaign, Hastati (and later Principes) are the core of my army. I mean, what else have you got? Triarii come too late - the Marian reforms preceded them in my campaign - and town watch are not really frontline troops.

I do use velites (later archers), equites and (to my shame) wardogs, but I prefer to have these as support troops for my solid heavy infantry line as this feels more historical. The velites and archers shoot from the front, then scoot behind the heavy infantry. The equites come out from the flanks. The wardogs... well, let's skip the cheese.

I think the key thing is to put the Hastati and Principes on fire at will. When stationary and defending, they should - just about - get a volley off before infantry closes. Cavalry attacking them will not be pretty, but usually you have the numbers for them to prevail. Even attacking, I tend to park them just in range and let them fire unless it is an emergency. The pila do decent damage and are particularly valuable against armoured enemies where every single casualty counts (eg heavy cavalry, chariots and elephants). I do tend to forgo the charge bonus unless out of ammo or in an emergency, but I think it is a reasonable trade off given that the bonus is rather low (a mere +2, IIRC).

I am not very experienced, but surely the hastati compare favourably to most other factions early infantry? At least they have good defence and the pila. I think a Roman army with lots of heavy infantry and some support should be able to handle most AI armies. The post-Marian units seem to do the same job, just better.

[caspian]

I completely forgot about the ALT key. Thanks for the reminder.

I've been playing Total War since bodies were piled up on the impossible Shinano mountains so I'm kinda old school. Just goes to show how different RTW is from MTW and STW, it rewrites the rules somewhat.

[Jugurtha]

I completely forgot about the ALT key. Thanks for the reminder.

I've been playing Total War since bodies were piled up on the impossible Shinano mountains so I'm kinda old school. Just goes to show how different RTW is from MTW and STW, it rewrites the rules somewhat.

I thought you could do the same with them? I'm sure I used to charge my archers downhill at monks all the time.

The hills were steeper in Shogun weren't they?

[econ21]

I thought you could do the same with them? I'm sure I used to charge my archers downhill at monks all the time.

The hills were steeper in Shogun weren't they?

Yes, you could but it was not advisable against Monks! However, if you look at the stats, archers could take on yaris on even terms with only the slightest of edge. Samauri archers were brilliant in STW.

The hills of Shinano bring back memories - there was really nice sort of raised pudding bowl area in Shinano. You could line the steep edges with archers backed by infantry and keep you cavalry hidden in the depression behind them. Is it just me or does the terrain look better in Shogun? Anyway, fond memories...

[hotingzilla]

in RTW, a large portion of units have lower attack ratings than its defence.

Is it to make battles last longer than it weren't?

[The_Dude]

I use the Hastati on auto fire as a buffer to take the charge of the Gaule swordmen and choosen in my Julii campaign (h/h) because that's the part that hurt. My second ligne is composed with heavy inf. that will take a charge where my light inf is to weak. Work rather well if you can keep the chariot out of your ligne, if they can flank you, they will disturb your formation and you will lose.
Use a little cav as well to flank them and it's a victory at each time...

[MadKow]

Havent played a lot yet, but i agree that having Hastati on fire at will gives the best results. I tend to have them in 4 ranks and form a line and march them at the enemy until they reach close enough to send a volley or two (if the enemy doesnt charge too soon).
If they are facing cavalry, i use "guard" and let them take the charge if i cant counter with my own cav. or wardogs (they are very good at bogging down a cavalry charge, besides other things...).
The only units that really hurt them were head-on Phalanxes but only those that wouldnt rout after taking all the Pila volleys.

[ToranagaSama]

I think a LOT of people aren't aware that "ALT+Left Click" will solve the Hasiti problem. I wasn't til several days ago.

Actually, once you figure them out they can be rather devastating, at least, so far, agains the Gauls.

Having two or more Hasiti, throw their spears upon one unit can be DEVASTATING! For example, say you've got three Gaul units advancing on three Hasiti. I'd take all three and have them throw their spears upon a single Gaul unit. This unit will be devasteted. Then quickly, I'll alt-click each unit to charge a corresponding Gaul unit.

The unit that charges the *devastated* Gaul unit should make quick work of them, and be available to flank one of the remaining units. The fact that the Hasiti can throw their spears gives them a distinct advantage.



---

Well, I 've just gotten the level that I can train Principes (sp?), I haven't trained any yet/ but the one unit that you start the game with comes in handy. I've kept them in the rear to defend against Calvarly flanking manuevers to my rear. All you need to do is just *show* the Principes and the Calvarly will back off.

[Servius]

yeah, I do what bob does too. I set them to Hold Possition/Guard whatever, Fire at will, put them in a straight line, usually 5 or more ranks deep, and try to inch them up to the nme line until they're in pilum range but don't provoke the nme charge.

One thing that still pisses me off is that, once they use all their pilums, when you order the attack, they delay extra-long, I think because they're unaware that they don't have any more pilums and try to through them anyway. That, or they're stretching and loosening up before they actually charge. Dumbasses. Oh, be sure to take them off Guard when you want them to charge, otherwise they won't wrap around the nme, they's just make contact in the center while the wings stand out in the open doing nothing.

They're just meat shields. Their armor is so poor they usually take more casualties from friendly archer fire than the nme target I'm shooting at, they lack spears for defense and anti-cav duty, they also lack swords for better anti-infantry duty...they just fill space, not particularly good at anything. And Principes are a waste. The only difference is they get 18 Total Defense rather than 16, yet they cost more and, because POPULATION stupidly determine what level of troops I can raise, Principes are much harder to refit in the field. You only need a Town (2000) to train Hastati but a Small City (8000) to train Principes. Given how slow the transportation system is, and how little the difference is between the two, I just build Hastati until the Marian Reforms.

[Ulstan]

I like my hastati.

The only problem is, their pilum need to either throw faster or have slightly longer range. Right now you can't throw your pila *and* countercharge enemy rushing at you, but I think romans did this all the time.

[Daevyll]

And Principes are a waste. The only difference is they get 18 Total Defense rather than 16, yet they cost more and, because POPULATION stupidly determine what level of troops I can raise, Principes are much harder to refit in the field. You only need a Town (2000) to train Hastati but a Small City (8000) to train Principes. Given how slow the transportation system is, and how little the difference is between the two, I just build Hastati until the Marian Reforms.

There is also a difference in weapon type and troop type (heavy/light)
I'm not really sure what this does in game terms, but I can imagine that some units will have bonuses/penalties vs certain weapon/troop types.

[Sir William Wallace]

what does the Alt key do?

[Sleepy]

what does the Alt key do?

Selects alternative weapon (if available) when combined with a left mouse click. Here it makes the roman infantry attack with swords rather than throw pilums.

[Bob the Insane]

Just to quibble a little I think the Alt key foces a Melee attack rather than the units default attack method....

[Ulug Beg]

I think it would be accurate if the Romans automatically threw thier pila as you charged them at an enemy, and would throw them automatically when standing to recieve a charge. I thought that is what they were trained to do - throw thier light and heavy pila as they go in.

I don't recall seeing any references to them 'skirmishing' in front of the enemy and then charging, which is what you have to do at the moment to get them to behave like Romans.

Would this be really difficult to implement in the code?

[ToranagaSama]

Just to quibble a little I think the Alt key foces a Melee attack rather than the units default attack method....

The ALT key is just like with Archers in MTW. Use the ALT key and the Archers would pull out there swords and attack.

When you use the ALT key the icon changes to a Sword.

[warlordmb]

Hi guys,
I've played all three factions at different levels frpm medium to hard. here is what I found. Fight the romans as they factually did. This works better the harder the level you play and also works better the more experience your troops are.
My standard Roman army is this - five units of Hastati in the front line - gaps between them wide enough to pass another cohort through. Second line Principes staggered to the gaps in the first line - like the black and white squares on a chess board. if you have more principes, extend the second line out beyond the first. This gives good cover against flank attack because the AI will usually attack the open end of the first line. You simply swing the end cohorts in the second line outwards towards the flanking attack. The real benefit of fighting like this is it stops the enemy from cavalry and/or infantry rushing your centre formations and getting at your misslie troops in the rear. I've had armies hit by multiple heavy cavalry units in the centre { which the AI does if it's cavalry heavy in it's army}. While I've taken losses The enemy cav has been stopped and I move my nearest second line cohort(s) forward to butcher the now milling cav. Against large Ai infantry units - like Gaul warband this also works real well. The much larger warband will lap around my front cohort and in doing presents its flank or flanks to the counter-charge of my second line cohort. My missile troops - usually two each of archers and skirmishers stay healthy ( just remember to give them targets to fire on that are not the enemy units now attacking your front line cohorts} The remainder of my my basic Roman army is made up of cavalry and heavy weapons like ballistae.

Another good idea is to have another smaller army following behind your main army. This smaller force has my seige weapons and at least a couple of replacements units to dribble into my main army to fill out losses. Just remember not to let it get too far away from the support of your main army. If the enemy appears in numbers have your Army commander build a fort. He then moves the whole main army of to fight while your siege/ resupply army is safe and sound holed up in the fort. Your main army then has the option of turning around and taking the beseiging force in the rear. This use of supporting armies works really well in places like Numidea and the open deserts where you are along way from cities and fresh supplies. Try it and see what you think.

Hope this helps.

[Leet Eriksson]

Hi guys,
I've played all three factions at different levels frpm medium to hard. here is what I found. Fight the romans as they factually did. This works better the harder the level you play and also works better the more experience your troops are.
My standard Roman army is this - five units of Hastati in the front line - gaps between them wide enough to pass another cohort through. Second line Principes staggered to the gaps in the first line - like the black and white squares on a chess board. if you have more principes, extend the second line out beyond the first. This gives good cover against flank attack because the AI will usually attack the open end of the first line. You simply swing the end cohorts in the second line outwards towards the flanking attack. The real benefit of fighting like this is it stops the enemy from cavalry and/or infantry rushing your centre formations and getting at your misslie troops in the rear. I've had armies hit by multiple heavy cavalry units in the centre { which the AI does if it's cavalry heavy in it's army}. While I've taken losses The enemy cav has been stopped and I move my nearest second line cohort(s) forward to butcher the now milling cav. Against large Ai infantry units - like Gaul warband this also works real well. The much larger warband will lap around my front cohort and in doing presents its flank or flanks to the counter-charge of my second line cohort. My missile troops - usually two each of archers and skirmishers stay healthy ( just remember to give them targets to fire on that are not the enemy units now attacking your front line cohorts} The remainder of my my basic Roman army is made up of cavalry and heavy weapons like ballistae.

Another good idea is to have another smaller army following behind your main army. This smaller force has my seige weapons and at least a couple of replacements units to dribble into my main army to fill out losses. Just remember not to let it get too far away from the support of your main army. If the enemy appears in numbers have your Army commander build a fort. He then moves the whole main army of to fight while your siege/ resupply army is safe and sound holed up in the fort. Your main army then has the option of turning around and taking the beseiging force in the rear. This use of supporting armies works really well in places like Numidea and the open deserts where you are along way from cities and fresh supplies. Try it and see what you think.

Hope this helps.

You beat me to the strategy i was just going to post on how to handle the hastatii and principes

I found placing them in a checkered style formation screens the principes from attack enabling them to use their projectiles effectively while the hastatii hold the enemy.

[Lichgod]

Why use Hastati at all? Just use Principes instead? Only draw back seems to be cost. Oh, and maybe finding replacements in newly conquered small towns.

[Oleander Ardens]

A bid OT, but talking about the alt key and leftklick: with warelephants it changes the sword to a bow eneables you to select you ranged target of choice... Marius told me

Cheers
OA

[HicRic]

I find using them as one would use javs in MTW is very effective. Pin a unit and then send Hastati/Principes around the back-chuck the pila in and you'll cause huge casulties as their shields won't be facing you-only their backs! Also Because they are stationary and involved in combat with the pinning unit it doesn't matter that they take a little while to throw. If that doesn't make the unit under fire rout, then you can just follow up the throws with a charge. Game over.

Throwing at the front of the enemy is also a viable option when you're taking on a phalanx-they're slow, so you can throw, cause death in their unit, and charge while they're trying to recover formation.