Another stupid bug

[GFX707]

Thank you SpencerH. That was exactly what I meant.

[Jugurtha]

Do unto others as you would have done unto you. That includes accepting that there may be aspects of a game that you don't agree with. It also includes realising that there may be some bugs in a piece of software this complicated.

Consumer rights have been used as an example of CA failling. When you buy a book bassed on the description on the cover and it doesn't turn out to be the one you expected do you demand redress?

As for the violence and swearing thing, as has been stated, in some areas of the world the standards you describe are not acceptible, this is an international forum, try and respect that. In any event, just because it happens doesn't mean it's right - personal responsability.

I wonder if the ratio of froth and rage is related to the kind of game RTW is and the kind of people who really get into it. An ancient history war game of this complexity (not a simulator) is bound to attract a lot of people who feel disenfranchised by the run of the mill games. MAybe they aren't used to civil social interaction? Maybe they just think this is their one opportunity to have the game of their fantasies. CA are the poor saps that have take the flak when some detail doesn't align with these boors' preconceptions.

State your problem politely. If and when CA show absolutely no inclination to address any of the bugs start jumping up and down. Till then....

[GFX707]

Type the word cr*p (I can't believe I have to censor it) into the search engine and you will see plenty of people using it.

[motorhead]

Type the word cr*p (I can't believe I have to censor it) into the search engine and you will see plenty of people using it.

sigh...you're missing the whole point. it's not just about "plenty of people using it", it's about discussing things in a non-flaming, non-trash talking environment, so we can focus our energy on the issues. I can plug in f*** into google and it returns +22million hits. Does that justify using f*** on the daily news? would you tell your mother, teacher or boss to "F*** off!" and then explain "well, plenty of people are using it"?

[Papewaio]

Okay for the purposes of teaching I am going to swear.

Now since I grew up on a farm, worked in the mines and am an Australian swearing is about as natural as sand on a beach. But I do minimise my swearing in the boards when I am not ranting.

It is not just the swearing it is the attitude and context in which it is used.

Bloody... swear word or adjective.

My bandage is bloody the wound is still healing. Adjective

Bloody hell that was stupid. Swearing.


Essentially would you use the word and attitude in front of/towards your Grandmother, child, preacher or boss. If not then don't use it at the Org.

[motorhead]

Not to beat this thread to death (too late ), but to counter the "being vocal about bugs is what gets them fixed" argument, here's a quote from a developer about user comments:

Reasoned comments get through the signal-to-noise filter; unreasoned - and unreasonable - rants tend to be treated as the work of monkey typists.

...and...

...we tend to share the details of the wittier/funnier/more trenchant/well argued posts too.

So flinging your muck about the cage doesn't attract developer notice, they flip the page and move on.


Flogging a dead horse,
Motorhead

[King Azzole]

Are you guys serious? You cant say cr@p here? Cr@p is like a normal word its not even a curse. You guys are wierd... But I guess thats how the internet works. The melting pot of different cultures. For instance, In cuban to say Cuca its like a name, and chocha is the females genitals (in vulgar form). But if you go to Central America, cuca means the females genitals in vulgar form and Chocha is a name for someone! Cultures...

[Colovion]

yeah I didn't think cr...p was a swear either

[GFX707]

sigh...you're missing the whole point. it's not just about "plenty of people using it", it's about discussing things in a non-flaming, non-trash talking environment, so we can focus our energy on the issues. I can plug in f*** into google and it returns +22million hits. Does that justify using f*** on the daily news? would you tell your mother, teacher or boss to "F*** off!" and then explain "well, plenty of people are using it"?

That was possibly the worst "parallel" in history. There is no rule against using the word "f***" (sigh) on the internet but there is for TV. Lots of people are using the word cr*p here and I am the only one to have got a warning for it.

Please do not try to make any more parallels ever again.

[GFX707]

Not to beat this thread to death (too late ), but to counter the "being vocal about bugs is what gets them fixed" argument, here's a quote from a developer about user comments:

...and...


So flinging your muck about the cage doesn't attract developer notice, they flip the page and move on.


Flogging a dead horse,
Motorhead

So they'll just ignore the bug in their game completely if theres a little bit of attitude around it?

I am not allowed to be displeased after I paid £40 for a game and found a defect in it that spoiled my enjoyment of it? and if I am then no one will pay attention to my bug report?

back to the car wiring/lamppost thing again.

[motorhead]

@gfx - my deepest apologies. it's so obvious that your "type c*** in a search engine...everyone is using it" rationale is clearly not related to my counter argument that because you can find lots of c*** being used on a search engine, it's no justification. yep, clear as a bell (btw, that's sarcasm. wouldn't want you to get it mixed up, seeing how much trouble rhetorical questions give you)

So they'll just ignore the bug in their game completely if theres a little bit of attitude around it?

- hmmm..that's not what i read, but how you see it. "Reasoned comments get through the signal-to-noise filter" - i.e. braying goats bleating and screaming about a bug gets ignored. If something is a true bug, they know a calm, rational, non-wailing infant, will clearly explain it. Hence, when they see noise (i.e. what you call "being vocal") they tune it out.

anyway, this thread is getting rather redundant, and you obviously just don't get it. continue your pointless rants at me, you'll "win" since i'm just going to flip by this thread.

[GFX707]

@gfx - my deepest apologies. it's so obvious that your "type c*** in a search engine...everyone is using it" rationale is clearly not related to my counter argument that because you can find lots of c*** being used on a search engine, it's no justification. yep, clear as a bell (btw, that's sarcasm. wouldn't want you to get it mixed up, seeing how much trouble rhetorical questions give you)


- hmmm..that's not what i read, but how you see it. "Reasoned comments get through the signal-to-noise filter" - i.e. braying goats bleating and screaming about a bug gets ignored. If something is a true bug, they know a calm, rational, non-wailing infant, will clearly explain it. Hence, when they see noise (i.e. what you call "being vocal") they tune it out.

anyway, this thread is getting rather redundant, and you obviously just don't get it. continue your pointless rants at me, you'll "win" since i'm just going to flip by this thread.

You just said "if you use attitude they completely ignore it". Learn to read!

If something has "attitude" around it it's not a bug? You are not very bright. Your parallel was stupid. There is no rule against swearing on the internet, but there is against swearing on the news. That is why no one swears on the news. YET if you type in cr*p into the search here you will find lots and lots of people using it without reprimands and yet it is only me that gets a warning!

L e a r n t o r e a d!

[barocca]

...yet it is only me that gets a warning!

not true, we have warned dozens, perhaps hundreds of people about it,
if i recall correctly before Pape became a moderator he had his share of warnings too,
Even I got a Warning in my Early days here at the Org,
(i have also had warnings and even thread closures and post deletions at other forums i frequent in the past)

the staff here cannot be everywhere at once,
we cannot read every post in every thread in every forum here at the Org,
we also are players of the game, have real live's, job's, school etc etc,
we try and thats the best we can do.

So we ask everyone to help us moderate these boards by moderating themselves.

I wont get into an argument of "he does it, why can't I?"
because "He" should not be doing it,
and when i see "Him" doing it i will say something about it.


The safest course of action is to not do it. Simple and easy.

[King Azzole]

Can someone please lock or delete this thread. Its ruining the image I had of this forum.

[sunsmountain]

here here. After being finally allowed to post in other places than the entrance hall i admire your efforts to educate 1 person who has no intention to learn.

There are only a few real bugs in the game, while the main gripe i have so far is things that were promised yet not implemented (destroying buildings by fire arrows, horses refusing a charge, etc.). But you can't really complain about that, can you? I mean if not implementing means Rome is stable, then all is well. And Rome is more stable than Medieval.

Sometimes units behave according to their individual AI, or group AI, even if you don't want them to. Like principes/hastati throwing their pilums they don't have any more, stopping their charge and taking away all their momentum. Or units that have been grouped performing path finding as a group, instead of as individual units. Or, to remain with this peculiar topic, retreating units colliding with your reinforcements and killing them...

I hope these can be patched.

[GFX707]

One last time for all the uptight goody two shoes's:

1) I called the bug stupid and not CA.
2) This is only the internet. Don't be so thin skinned. Sticks and stones

[Akka]

It's not a point about being thin-skinned.
It's more :

a) You are CONSTANTLY throwing insults at CA.

b) You don't report the bug in a civilized manner.

If you're unable to talk like an educated, polite person, it's not the other who are too sensitive. It's YOU who have an attitude problem.

[GFX707]

Show me where I talk like an uneducated person.

Show me these "constant" "insults". For a bug like this to slip through QA suggests that the QA is kind of rubbish. What's wrong with saying that? You all act like after paying for this game I should just accept any bugs that came with it and pray every night to the CA that can do no wrong in the hope that maybe they'll descend from heaven and fix my bug....and if they do it's the hugest favour on earth and I should give them my kidneys or something.

REMEMBER. This is a product that we are paying for. This is not something that someone made for us out of the kindness of their own hearts, and they are all making money off of us.

[SpencerH]

Can someone please lock or delete this thread. Its ruining the image I had of this forum.

I cant tell if thats sarcasm or not; didnt a CA employee call you a thief in the thread about a no cd patch?

[Jango Fett]

take a chill pill, even i enjoy a good flame now and then, cr@p bucket!

[King Azzole]

I cant tell if thats sarcasm or not; didnt a CA employee call you a thief in the thread about a no cd patch?

No. Whats your point? This thread needs to be locked I dont understand why its allowed to continue. Either way I wont be returning so if you care to start a flame with me take it to PM. I am not 13.

[SpencerH]

No. Whats your point? This thread needs to be locked I dont understand why its allowed to continue. Either way I wont be returning so if you care to start a flame with me take it to PM. I am not 13.

Unfortunately, the thread I was refering to seems to have been axed. Since you say it wasnt you, then I guess it wasnt you, and I apologize for that.

Since I did think it was you, however, I found it rather ironic that someone who bought RTW with his brother (and wanted to load it and use it on two computers), who was called a thief by a CA employee, to be ******** about another word for poo-poo (hopefully that word wont ruin any images you have).

Again, since it wasnt you and I'm not trying to flame anyone, I apologize for my error. I'm glad you're not 13.

[GFX707]

You get branded a thief for that these days? I remember the days when me and my friends used to take stuff like Wing Commander 2 around to each others houses and share all the stuff we bought. I bet at least CA employee has done that too. It's a TAD harsh to call someone a thief for that....I bought RTW from ebay....does that make me a thief?

[Akka]

I cant tell if thats sarcasm or not; didnt a CA employee call you a thief in the thread about a no cd patch?

No, that was me.
Because I said I always DL a game before buying it. Wonder how I can be a thief when I end up buying the thing full retail price, but well... I don't blame him. It's hard not to become emotional when it comes to your creation and your way to make a living, especially when both are the same.

[Colovion]

It makes sense that you would be dubbed a theif for that.

However, I got into playing Age of Kings by a hacked version which I downloaded and got the Expansion pack for illegally as well. At the time I was a lot younger so I didn't really think twice about it. The game was awesome - nothing was missing besides the music track and at the time I didn't care. I played that game for countless hours and I'm possitive that if I didn't have those hours of play with that game I wouldn't be here today. After about a year or so playing the game I wanted to support Ensemble Studios for putting forth such a great game and went and bought the game and XP - mainly just because I'd never played it with the music track - and cause Age of Mythology was due out in six months. It's strange - I started by illegally downloading that game and ended up with such respect for the developer that I bought AoM soley because I respected the developers work; very similar to Creative Assembly now.

Oh yeah - don't download games, kids - it's wrong.

[Papewaio]

You get branded a thief for that these days? I remember the days when me and my friends used to take stuff like Wing Commander 2 around to each others houses and share all the stuff we bought. I bet at least CA employee has done that too. It's a TAD harsh to call someone a thief for that....I bought RTW from ebay....does that make me a thief?

If the license was for a single machine at a time and you loaded the game onto multiple machines without deleting it off previous machines then you would be breaching your licensing agreement.

Now you wonder why a lot of game design companies have gone and why games are costing so much more. It is only partially true to blame it on piracy. It is the large companies that produce the games (not design them) and the selling points that are making the money from the markups. The design companies are not getting a large enough slice of the retail price. Markups are for the explicit cost of advertising, production and retail space. They use piracy as an implicit cost and excuse for the markups.

[Jugurtha]

Show me where I talk like an uneducated person.

Show me these "constant" "insults". For a bug like this to slip through QA suggests that the QA is kind of rubbish. What's wrong with saying that? You all act like after paying for this game I should just accept any bugs that came with it and pray every night to the CA that can do no wrong in the hope that maybe they'll descend from heaven and fix my bug....and if they do it's the hugest favour on earth and I should give them my kidneys or something.

REMEMBER. This is a product that we are paying for. This is not something that someone made for us out of the kindness of their own hearts, and they are all making money off of us.

If you feel so strongy that your consumer rights have been infringed why don't you do something about it? Instead of whingeing on about things here? This isn't even the official web site.

If you take the time you'd find the following info for questions, bugs and complaints. When you get a reply, let us know and we'll all be grateful. Not that I have seen what you describe happen.

I've put the UK details in because I assumed that's where you are from - used the £ symbol somewhere.

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PS installing WC2 on all your mates computers is theft if you don't delete first. It isn't alright just because all your mates do it. It won't be till you and "all" those people who do use their democratic right to change the legislation. Not that it would anyway since it is so self evidently wrong to do that in the first place.

[Akka]

It makes sense that you would be dubbed a theif for that.

I can understand why I would be dubbed a thief for that, but I just say it's false ^^
A thief don't pay for what he steal.
I do (and I don't steal, I copy. Which is a form of infringement on copyright, but not a "theft" in the strict meaning, as nobody actually lose something during the copy, they just don't gain something).

It's strange - I started by illegally downloading that game and ended up with such respect for the developer that I bought AoM soley because I respected the developers work; very similar to Creative Assembly now.

Same here (except I wasn't too thrilled by AoM).

Oh yeah - don't download games, kids - it's wrong.

No. What's wrong is to not buy a game you have liked.
Reward the ones who deserve it.

Now you wonder why a lot of game design companies have gone and why games are costing so much more.

Well, actually, the games aren't costing more. They even cost less than before (remember the first CD games, totally unpiratables, which costed nearly half more than the ones today, while the price of the support was the same ?).

What's fun, is that you can see the prices of games following more or less exactly the level of piracy : the more there is piracy, the cheaper the games are. Somehow revealing :)

And if companies go away, it's mainly because of the investment necessary to make a game. Some years ago, it was barely some hundred of thousands bucks. Even some tens of thousands sometimes.
Now, it's several millions at the bare least.

It is only partially true to blame it on piracy. It is the large companies that produce the games (not design them) and the selling points that are making the money from the markups. The design companies are not getting a large enough slice of the retail price. Markups are for the explicit cost of advertising, production and retail space. They use piracy as an implicit cost and excuse for the markups.

That's very, very true.

[Jugurtha]

What's fun, is that you can see the prices of games following more or less exactly the level of piracy : the more there is piracy, the cheaper the games are. Somehow revealing :)

.

Yes it's hilarious. How long do you think it took to develop RTW? 3-4 years? How many people worked on it for all that time and how much do you think they get paid? How much do you reckon all the other resources allocated to this game over the life of the project cost?

Those evil marketing types (who always seem to be able to fool everyone else but not us) get involved to spread the game to as many people who wouldn't be likely to pick up a game like RTW. If it wasn't for them persuading a whole lot of people to buy this game we, who spod-like wanted this game, would never have got it. The development costs are simply too high.

If the price drops in paralell to piracy this is simply a reflection of normal market demand and supply being skewed by theft. They have to try and cove their costs.

I did my Honours dissertation on software copyright theft about ten years ago. The rates of piracy in Western Europe were about 40-50% of all software. In Russia and the Far East you are (were?) looking at 95% of all software was pirated. Is it any wonder that Microsoft Office cost so much?

My brother keeps getting ripped copies of stuff, to be honest I'm not interested. I'd rather pay for a game like RTW.

[Akka]

Why the useless rant ?
I DO buy every game I like. I consider that good creation MUST be rewarded.

But I fail to see the link with marketing garbage or the hypocrisy and lies of the publishers ("games are expensive because we're ruined by pirates *cries* We don't want to, but we're forced to recoup our losses due to evil, evil pirates", but funnily enough, the prices racks up when there is no piracy, and decrease when there is...).