Criticisms of CA... again

**TigerVX** · 10-14-2004, 04:59

Better patched? It hasn't even been out for a month yet >>;;;.

**Thoros of Myr** · 10-14-2004, 05:03

Originally Posted by TigerVX

Better patched? It hasn't even been out for a month yet >>;;;.

I'm not talking about RTW specificly in that sentance, I'm talking about games I have seen in the past.

**Quietus** · 10-14-2004, 05:31

Thx Tamur for posting this. I guess we are all guilty of frustration at one point or the other, however, nobody can deny this is a fabulous game! If the game is "garbage", I'll be the first person to throw the tomato

and jump off the Total War ship. Thankfully, that's not the case

Thus, let's all make criticism that are to the point and antiseptic (meaning, less driven by emotion and sarcasm). The game isn't even a month old too, so thrashing it badly is premature especially with patch 1.2 in the horizon. The devs who visit do acknowledge issues that are to be patched, so I'm not really sure about the big ruckus?

**Encaitar** · 10-14-2004, 08:01

When I saw the title for this thread I thought "okay, what are they having a go at the devs for this time". Pleasantly surprised to see that my expectation was wrong.

Personally I am very impressed by the amount of interaction CA have with the Org forums. For many games, the Devs seem to be quite stand-offish, and only post announcements, never engage in discussion or question-answering, but that's not the case here. It's also worth remembering that these aren't the Official forums. The Devs could very reasonably be expected to completely ignore this place, and only interact with the .com forums. Thankfully they visit both, which is something else worth keeping in mind.

I tend to check the org forums once or twice a day. And in the Colosseum, there's regularly 2 or 3 pages worth of threads with new posts. That's a hell of a lot to keep up with. Over at the .com, there's even more. Despite how long and tiresome this would get, CA do regularly read the forums. Just because they do not respond, doesn't mean they aren't listening and taking what's being said on board. Personally, I'd far prefer them to be spending time working on the game (e.g. fixing bugs and adding more features) than spending all day responding to every post sent their way on both .com and .org forums.

Of course, there does need to be some communication, but I think generally it's pretty good. Bear in mind that most of the threads that get started yelling "BUG" or "CA DO THIS" are things that have already been said dozens of times before in almost identical threads. In many cases, the Devs have actually already responded to an earlier incarnation of the thread.

They do have to be a bit careful with what they say too. Better to under-promise and over-deliver than vice versa. And some things they would be unable to discuss for various reasons.

Just generally, and I think this was the main point of Tamur's post, try to be polite and constructive with your criticism. There have been a couple of instances where people have gone and done some extensive testing on an issue, presented their results clearly and politely, and said "so in conclusion, this looks like a bug to me", to which the Devs have been happy to respond "hey, you're right, thanks, we'll go fix that".

They may not always respond, but they're listening. And if you doubt it, go read the credits again.

**Captain Fishpants** · 10-14-2004, 09:48

In the spirit of this thread being reasonable and communicative I thought I'd reply to prove that we do come here and pay attention.

Rather than having ciggie breaks and standing like a dampened loon in the car park developing a nasty cough, I tend to have a flick through the forums (fora?) a few times each day. I'm not the only one, and we tend to share the details of the wittier/funnier/more trenchant/well argued posts too.

So where we are at the moment is this: we're collating material for a patch and looking at the issues that need to be addressed. This is based on user feedback gathered in the many - and largely enthusiastic - responses that we have here and elsewhere. I tend to view even the grumbles as significant, because if you have the energy to come and grumble, then you felt involved by the game. Reasoned comments get through the signal-to-noise filter; unreasoned - and unreasonable - rants tend to be treated as the work of monkey typists. See, it's not nice, is it?

It is a turn off to be told that we are a bunch of ne'er-do-wells (and that is politely paraphrasing the thrust of the remarks) who have somehow destroyed all your hopes, your future and your children with our cruelty in providing entertainment at reasonable cost. Truly, we are fiends incarnate (although Intrepid Sidekick doesn't look good in red - he looks like one of Santa's elves gone to the Dark Side). I look forward every day to stroking a white cat and plotting your collective downfall.

The truth is more prosaic (ooh, look it up) - we are trying to do something damn difficult, and do it well. Very well. The market, the reviewers and most people seem to think we've succeeded. But that doesn't mean we're ignoring people here or anywhere else.

Why do you think we bothered to give the forums - and the Org in particular - a "special thanks" in the credits, after all? So, if you're in need of a hug from the devs...

Feel better?

Good.

**The_Emperor** · 10-14-2004, 10:09

Thanks for that Captain, and we do appreciate you guys dropping by and giving us feedback, after all many developers don't do this and its very reassuring to know that you guys are listening...

It is good to know you guys are working on a patch as well, and I do hope you manage to solve a few issues with it (and hopefully give us back the campaign battle replay ability).

Cheers.

**foop** · 10-14-2004, 10:34

Well said. I know it's annoying when your unit of expensive troops runs into the river rather than across the bridge. I know all the other problems are annoying. And I know that you might not agree with squalour as a way of limiting city growth. But, being offensive about it isn't going to fix the problem.

A lot of game designers leave customers on their own, but CA have always been good at patching and fixing issues. The only company I can think of that is as good is Egosoft (makers of X Beyond The Frontier and X2), who also have a lively forum that is read by their devs.

Mind you, I still can't wait for a patch.

[Edit: Politeness improved]

**Aymar de Bois Mauri** · 10-14-2004, 11:11

Thanks for the reply, Captain Fishpants.

I'm glad to know that you sense concern from the posters, even when some comments might seem harsh (a few of mine are included in this category). Although, as you've said, not all comments are worthy of taking into consideration, because some are just insulting and unjustified without being constructive, I believe firmly that most of the harsh ones have a genuine constructive reason for being written (the harsh ones I make belong in this category). That reason is, of course, the ever improvement of the game and of the TW series.

In that regard, I do not believe that you (CA devs), of everyone, would want a "yes-men" forum, only concerned in praising your work even if there were grevious problems in the game. As you've aknowledged, the main advantage of a dev/forum-member dialog is feedback - so important in debugging and perfecting gameplay.

Accordingly, there are reasons for posts that might seem harsh, although not unjustified. Some of these focus on the flow of the TW series, that most of the long-time posters at the ORG are concerned about. Although it is perfectly justified that CA takes the game in whatever direction it wants, it's sad when, IMHO, I see the game skipping concepts that were part of the reasons the TW series is regarded for, or incorporating mainstream concepts that do not fit with the series.

In conclusion, I still believe that very few can compare to CA in creative work and perfectionism (this last belief is pretty shaken by some recent design decisions). So, I hope that, you at CA - although I understand marketing and sales volume pressure - can still keep with the ideas, concepts and frame of mind that you had when you've initially created the series.