Europa Barbarorum

[ick_of_pick]

Thats alot of detail for the Celtic/Germanic Peoples, and I'm impressed by the names being in the appropritate language. However, isn't the reason they were labeled "barbarians" by the Romans because Celtic/Briton/Germanic armies were generally just a mass of untrained, undisciplined, unmotivated, poorly equiped villagers who would turn and run from combat if thier initial mass-charge was stopped? Besides, according to Roman records, less than 1/5th of the army actually had armor, and even less than that had horses. There were those select few who were considrered fanatical warriors, and would work themselves into a berserker frenzy, but even they would break and run if things got bad. I personally find the Celts to be very interseting culture to study, but they were militarily ineffective and almost helpless against professional soldiers such as the Romans, Greeks, or Carthaginians.

Ick

P.S. How is it that they let you train Libyan Spearmen when your not even in Libya? Another total war mystery yet to be solved.

[PSYCHO V]

Thats alot of detail for the Celtic/Germanic Peoples, and I'm impressed by the names being in the appropritate language. However, isn't the reason they were labeled "barbarians" by the Romans because Celtic/Briton/Germanic armies were generally just a mass of untrained, undisciplined, unmotivated, poorly equiped villagers who would turn and run from combat if thier initial mass-charge was stopped? Besides, according to Roman records, less than 1/5th of the army actually had armor, and even less than that had horses.

There were those select few who were considrered fanatical warriors, and would work themselves into a berserker frenzy, but even they would break and run if things got bad. I personally find the Celts to be very interseting culture to study, but they were militarily ineffective and almost helpless against professional soldiers such as the Romans, Greeks, or Carthaginians.

Ick.

arr...no

1) “barbarians”. For starters the Britons, Gauls and Germans all fought and equipped themselves differently. They were labelled Barbarians because they didn’t speak Greek or adopt Roman Culture. Rather ethno centric way of looking at the world imho. Like England calling America barbaric or vis versa.

2) “Training”. There was a great deal of variation of quality between tribes but generally they were all trained to a degree. Even the Stone Age German Fennians were trained by their tribe to use the spear and bow. Some were very well trained in weapon use, tactics and formations. The Chatii and Helvetii excelled at the phalanx, the Arverni and Allobroges renown for their heavy infantry shield formations, etc etc

3) “Discipline”. There are numerous accounts of both Celts and Germans holding their lines and fighting to the last man. It’s worth mentioning that all men are human and can give up… even the ‘elite’ Spartans. The Celts were just as human but it seems the Romans in particular made light of those times in which the Celts run from battle. Whilst the Romans concede defeat at the hands of a ‘worthy foe’ the semi-cultured Carthaginians, the Celts and Germans are derided at every opportunity unless, like in a few cases with Caesar, they are grudgingly conceded notable qualities when if suits the political ends. Very little is said of the 100’s of 1,000’s of Romans that lost their lives under the blades of the Germans, the Gauls, the Celtiberians. Huge defeats, as big in casualties as Cannae.

4) “Unmotivated”. Hmm, I have to say your not exhibiting much understanding of these ancient cultures.

5) “Poorly equipped villagers”. Well some documents I’ve read place the Arverni / Allobroge army mid 2nd century had a majority of their troops in chain mail. They were extremely well led, (with unit commanders) and equipped. The problem was that they never got to strike a blow in all their fine array. The Romans charged them with Elephants and having never seen the beasts before, and been told of these fearful creatures by their ancestors that fought Hannibal a generation before..they fled in terror.

6) “Who would turn and run from combat if their initial mass-charge was stopped”. Again even Caesar’s well read account mentions Celts fighting to the last man.

7) “they were militarily ineffective and almost helpless against professional soldiers such as the Romans, Greeks, or Carthaginians”. And all those defeats were because ? The Greeks got trounced by the Celts, the Carthaginians had a very hard time and made more progress through diplomacy, the Romans threw huge resources and manpower into any conflict and only then managed to finally destroy the Celts by dividing and conquering. They never conquered the Germans.


my2bob

[Ranika]

The barbarians were exceptionally well motivated compared to most of the people of the ancient world. While religion was a motivator for everyone, the religions of Celts and Germans were especially invigorating, not to mention an intense 'culture pride' that made them loathe outside invaders, much of the time.

The Gauls, particularly, had a professional concept of warfare, with professional soldiers, that were quite capable of obliterating Roman and Greek armies (hence how Gaul sacked Rome). Julius conquered Gaul by encouraging the infighting and getting the professionals killed, and fighting against hastily assembled levies, and the remnants of professional soldiers.

You also have to realize 'Roman accounts' of any barbarian are more than a little skewed, often to make their enemies seem less terrible. They were often quite offended by the cultures of the northern people, and, as such, were rather loathe to say anything 'nice' about them, although that happened from time to time.

The most 'glowing' presentation of a barbarian in the mediterranean cultures is probably the statue of 'The Dying Gaul'. The Gaul is purposely made to look without fear, because it was noted that Gauls, and other barbarian tribes, didn't tend to face death with fear, due to the aforementioned religious practices. The accomplishments of the Celts and Germans aren't often recorded though, as niether wrote a great deal. The Celts (not sure about the Germans), actually had a religious reason not to, thinking things were too precious to be written down, but there were many who COULD write, often in Greek or Latin. But, Celtic culture was considered too precious to be written down usually, and the memory was highly valued, so it was expected that events should be commited to memory, not written down. However, their known accomplishments include sacking Rome (both Celts and Germans), and that's the important one to take into consideration. If barbarian armies were so easily defeated, there is no concievable way they could've done that, regardless of numbers (note Boudicca's defeat, huge numbers against the legion isn't going to win everything for you, but Boudicca's 'army' WAS generally untrained peasants who followed her out of a type of proto-nationalism).

[reconspy]

Hey all, since Vercingetorix's release of the CAS Editor today, I've started working on the units posted by PSCYHO V.

Here is the first version of Arverni Arjos. The cloak will be hard to do, but I will attempt it. The golden embroidery on the bottom of the tunic is also hard to do as there isn't much room for that kind of detail. There are still some minor details I have to work out. Any comments or criticisms are appreciated.



I have a torc!

[Dead Moroz]

Good work, reconspy! But... Make trousers wider. And don't forget about squares on cloak and trousers. And maybe their scutas should be more oval?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Warhammer Ancients is a set of rules that are used to re-create ancient/medieval battles using small painted pewter miniatures. The rulebook comes with lists of almost every army you can think of from pre-Sumerian times to Japanese Samurai times. It's very realistic and was written by historians and military professors not video game developers. It includes:

Egyptians: pre alexander, and after
Republican Romans
Post Marian Romans
Late Romans
Carthaginians
Greeks
Assyrians
Macedonians
Britons
Gauls
Celtic Spain
Germans
Parthians
Palmyrans
Asiatic Nomads (Scythians included)
Arabs
Alexander and Successors

There is more, but they don't apply to the RTW time period.


Each factions list has details on the military they used, units, weapons, armor and what that unit was called in that cultures language.
The name of the book is "warhammer armies of antiquity"

You can google it but I don't think you'll find any pictures of the inside of the book...

Can we get all that info in some specific site and post it in the EB thread at the Colosseum?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Good work, reconspy! But... Make trousers wider. And don't forget about squares on cloak and trousers. And maybe their scutas should be more oval?

He can't make trousers wider unless he can edit the polygonal mesh and that isn't possible yet.

Fantastic skinning, reconspy!!!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Sounds great mate, can't wait to see what models you can come up with.

I do think we need to sort out a definitive list, else we'll get repetion / redundancy etc. So can we have a chat about the Gallic units before we get too far into the nitty gritty?

I said before that I and TK were working on a full unit list (changes and new units)!!! Please, pay attention!!!

I believe we have two options:

1) Just mod existing units to be more factual / interesting
2) Rework the lot

For now we can only re-skin units. And we'll do the "barbarian" units first.

Here’s a point to start from, my past recommendations. Feel free to rip these lists to shreds, make changes, give input, recommendations, etc etc etc. But I do think we need to come to an agreeance IMHO.

Thoughts anyone?

Yes. Don't post Historical info here. The EB thread at the Colosseum is for that purpose. Here only technical discussion. OK?

[Dead Moroz]

He can't make trousers wider unless he can edit the polygonal mesh and that isn't possible yet.

I thought it's possible to edit "cas files" in 3d max with Vercingetorix' script. Sorry!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I thought it's possible to edit "cas files" in 3d max with Vercingetorix' script. Sorry!

Sorry!!! I'm an idiot!!!

I've been pretty busy and didn't know that Vercingetorix had released the script!!! I'm going to try it as we speak!!!

[Vercingetorix]

Looking good reconspy, apparently you are much farther then I am on the model so I think it would be best if I worked on a different one so we aren't competing or doing the same thing. I hope you include the sun medalion

[khelvan]

Ok, things are shaping up, this looks good.

First, I have made several changes to gameplay, and I am looking for people willing to test them. Please contact me via PM if you are interested and I'll get you the relevant files.

Second, wow, you guys working on the new units are doing a great job. In order to keep up with you we need people working on the unit balance ASAP. Amyar if you can coordinate this so that we have stats ready for these beautiful units, I would appreciate it. We also need to know what gets dropped from our first release, such as units like the Head Hurlers, I presume, and the Egyptian Chariots.

I would love a volunteer for each of the existing factions, or willing to take on several factions each, to work on the descriptions, family names, family tree, and in general the history around each faction. Just as a FYI for the first release I was planning on Spain becoming Iberia, Egypt becoming Ptolemaic Egypt or the Ptolemaic Kingdom, and the Greek Cities becoming the Aetolian league (with changes on included cities). I could really use help on the Greek side, as we're limited with the number of factions available at the moment, so we're going to have to fudge things initially.

Is there no one out there who is familiar with the naval combat of the age? Input is definitely needed here.

[Stormy]

Excellent work guys. I know I don't belong in this thread ( I'm not a modder ) but I am a supporter

Here is 2 good links that can provide some good info for some of the departments some of the modders are working on.

Livius - Articles in ancient history

Kessler - History files

[Stormy]

I got the pm. Sign me up for testing

[Steppe Merc]

I'll gladly do beta testing etc.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Excellent work guys. I know I don't belong in this thread ( I'm not a modder ) but I am a supporter

Hey, Stormy! You can post at this thread. Everyone can. There is no problem. But varied info is better if concentrated in each specific thread. It was getting too confusing.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Update on the work list:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

Silver Rusher
...
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

Stefan the Berserker
Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
TigerVX
reconspy
Aymar de Bois Mauri

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-naval battle changes:

khelvan
Colovion
...
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-Faction and unit Descriptions:

Stefan the Berserker
PSYCHO
PSYCHO V (are these two avatars the same person??? as they both say "Australia" and they post a lot of info about Celts!! I'm getting sooooo confused... )
Stormy
chemchok
...
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Monk
Stormy
chemchok
PSYCHO V
Hagbard la Suede
...

More imput people, please...



Updated 17:50 - 10/19/04

[ick_of_pick]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that the Gallic, Briton, and Germanic peoples were poor warriors, I'm saying they were ineffective because of a lack of organization and irregular training. The Romans would drill thier troops constantly, and they were taught how to work together as an army. They had much more balance in terms of combined arms, and would respond to orders and change in battlefield tactics much more efficiently than the Gauls ever could. If your talking about individual fighting prowess, then yes, I would agree that a single Celt or German would most likely defeat a single legionnaire in one-on-one combat, seeing as how they trained from youth to be outstanding individual fighters. The reason I call them ineffective is because of the big picture. They were conquered. It is a definite fact that the Celts did win many battles against the Romans, Boudiccas rebellion alone killed about 70,000 Roman Soldiers. However, consider the fact that the Roman army, at it's maximum number of about 500,000 men, spread out across the whole empire managed to defeat and drive out a Gallic population of over 6,000,000. That shows how hopeless they were against the legions on open ground. There are certain situations, such as Teutoburg Forest, where the "Barbarians" defeated the Romans by luring them into a devastating ambush in terrain the Legions articulated poorly in, but these are few, and were not major setbacks for the Romans. I'm a big fan of Celtic culture and history, so don't think I'm some sort of biased maniac. But history shows results, and the Romans pretty much out performed the Celts in terms of overall martial ability.

Ick

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Second, wow, you guys working on the new units are doing a great job. In order to keep up with you we need people working on the unit balance ASAP. Amyar if you can coordinate this so that we have stats ready for these beautiful units, I would appreciate it. We also need to know what gets dropped from our first release, such as units like the Head Hurlers, I presume, and the Egyptian Chariots.

Well, I'm up to my neck in work with the list me and TK are making for all the units being modified and the new ones, as well as trying to coordinate the remaining Historical info, but I'll try.

I would love a volunteer for each of the existing factions, or willing to take on several factions each, to work on the descriptions, family names, family tree, and in general the history around each faction. Just as a FYI for the first release I was planning on Spain becoming Iberia, Egypt becoming Ptolemaic Egypt or the Ptolemaic Kingdom, and the Greek Cities becoming the Aetolian league (with changes on included cities). I could really use help on the Greek side, as we're limited with the number of factions available at the moment, so we're going to have to fudge things initially.

Hey, you Historians!!! Heard that? Get to work, guys!!!

Just for the record, I' will alter and add the new Iberian units, as well as the Iberian faction descriptions.

Is there no one out there who is familiar with the naval combat of the age? Input is definitely needed here.

I would like to help, but I'm not familiar with it.

[chemchok]

Alright, sign me up to help out. My programming skills are practically non-existent but I'd be happy to help out with the unit descriptions, family names, faction history, etc. I don't really have any preferences, so just tell me what's needed at the moment.

Edit: Oh, and playtesting doesn't sound too bad either.

[Stormy]

Just a question, what is going to happen to the new lusitanian faction and will it still be implemented ? If Iberians will equals all from the Iberian peninsula.

[PSYCHO V]

I said before that I and TK were working on a full unit list (changes and new units)!!! Please, pay attention!!!

I've been reprehended. Sorry all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

RECONSPY ! you bloody legend !



Very Very nice work mate! ..and we have our first Celt with a TORC !!

A few minor suggestions if possible:

* make the torc bigger. I know the pic plays it down a bit but from archeological evidence we know they were very conspicuous.

* Great Helm but squaring off the cheek guards would help a bit

* Love the cloak, again great job there. Prob needs a nice bronze / golden broach on that shoulder if poss. and a little longer.

* 'Flesh out' the pants and shirt so as not to appear so tight

* Give short boots

* Golden braclets

* make the Shield larger

* Maybe make the pants a dark green tartan pattern to give a little faction colour.

* Would be good if possible, to reduce the flare of the shirt etc below the belt so that it's closer to the leg.

* Send me a copy? ..please! (davehas12@hotmail.com)

Mate you you've done an awesome job here. Well done! I should have photoshop in a day or too if I can offer any help?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vercingetrix, again a huge thanks for making all this possible. Any chance you could work on the 'Bodubatae' ? Rather difficult unit that may need your special attention?

Bodubatae (‘Raven Warriors’): (Elite Medium Infantry)

Excellent Discipline, Good Valour, Good Stamina, High Morale,
(Bronze Raven helmet, long hair, Gallic moustache, golden torque, golden armlets, bronze armbands, long sleeve shirt with bronze cuirass, red tartan trousers to ankles, cloak in 'faction colours’ fastened with large golden broach on right shoulder, short boots, long thrusting spear, long Celtic sword, Oval Shield).
The Aedui ‘Bodubatae'are a Royal Body Guard, an elite infantry unit made up from the best warriors of the Aedui confederacy. They invoke the Female War Goddess Morrigan (Who was believed to take the form of a Raven to steal away men’s souls, hence the helmet). Their role, similar to the Roman Praetorian Guard, is to serve the highest office in the land, the Gallic High King. Well trained, drilled and disciplined they are expensive and difficult to raise but make up for their small numbers by their impact in battle. They can form a testudo, shield wall or a phalanx with their long spears.
(Can be raised from Aedui Territory)The most challenging of the Gallic units would be the Could you start on the

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Khelvan, I'm willing to test the Gauls and Brits if need be. Can you add units to the units build lists yet?


Cheers

[khelvan]

I am able to add new units to the build lists with no problems at all. All I need are the unit stats/info and the required files. Since I'm currently toying with the game systems, I don't have time to work with you guys on the unit stats, so I trust you guys to balance them out for now.

I should have a link to a .zip with the work I have done sent to those who have expressed interest in beta testing tonight or tomorrow.

Also, check out this thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=37945

If that gets up and running, everyone benefits, as the amount of information we'll be able to find there will be huge.

Edit: I should add that units have sounds and such associated with them, I assume if you haven't made new ones you'll need to pick existing sounds to use.

[PSYCHO V]

I am able to add new units to the build lists with no problems at all.

Brilliant. You couldn't put together a quick list of comparative stats for say the Gauls, Brits, Germans, Romans and Greeks? It would give a starting point.

Is it possible to mod the Arverni to enable a phalanx ability with their current spears or do you have to then give them the very long pikes for that? If so, can we give them a Celtic longsword as a secondary weapon that they use when not in phalanx and charge?

[khelvan]

Please take a look at the other Europa Barbarorum thread, in the Colosseum, for information on the units - I posted a link there to someone's unit stat collection online. Transcribing the info would be quite the difficult thing to do, with so much data.

As to your question about the unit behavior, I am not sure but I believe that you need the long pikes to utilize the phalanx. On the second weapon, to be honest I do not know. I know that the unit can have two melee weapons, but I have no idea how their use is determined. I suggest finding a unit with two melee weapons, digging through export_unit.txt to see what the data looks like, and watch it fight in the game. That is the best I can tell you, for now.

[Mr Frost]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that the Gallic, Briton, and Germanic peoples were poor warriors, I'm saying they were ineffective because of a lack of organization and irregular training. The Romans would drill thier troops constantly, and they were taught how to work together as an army. They had much more balance in terms of combined arms, and would respond to orders and change in battlefield tactics much more efficiently than the Gauls ever could. If your talking about individual fighting prowess, then yes, I would agree that a single Celt or German would most likely defeat a single legionnaire in one-on-one combat, seeing as how they trained from youth to be outstanding individual fighters. The reason I call them ineffective is because of the big picture. They were conquered. It is a definite fact that the Celts did win many battles against the Romans, Boudiccas rebellion alone killed about 70,000 Roman Soldiers. However, consider the fact that the Roman army, at it's maximum number of about 500,000 men, spread out across the whole empire managed to defeat and drive out a Gallic population of over 6,000,000. That shows how hopeless they were against the legions on open ground. There are certain situations, such as Teutoburg Forest, where the "Barbarians" defeated the Romans by luring them into a devastating ambush in terrain the Legions articulated poorly in, but these are few, and were not major setbacks for the Romans. I'm a big fan of Celtic culture and history, so don't think I'm some sort of biased maniac. But history shows results, and the Romans pretty much out performed the Celts in terms of overall martial ability.

Ick

Historically , the best that most societies can manage in way of producing professional soldiers is about 10 percent of their total population and that is only in war {unsustainable} and the average quality of soldier is usually lower than would normally be the case {not every man makes a good soldier , most will always be mediocre fighters simply because they don't have the natural tallent to build on} .

The Gauls had been through some very costly civil wars and a great number of their professional warriors were already dead when Ceasar set out to conquer them , and they did not unite {or even try too , the civil wars were still raging} until it was far too late .
Most of Vetorngetorix army was untrained "patriots" , farmers etc . They probably got in the way more than they helped . Also , many groups in that army {an other such "scratch forces" feilded} did not work well together {they had been killing each other for many years now in civil war after all} which made matters worse .

6 million people who are busy fighting each other and have lost much of their best fighting power in those civil wars isn't much to conquer when you have an empire of several tens of millions behind you that is quite stable and wealthy !
Note how quickly Germany conquered France , Belgium , Poland , The Netherlands , Norway etc in WWII ... Rome conquering a divided people whom were already badly attrited and a mere fraction of Romes population and wealth doesn't make those Celts backwards nor their armies {as they were before their coalition of tribes broke apart in civil war} weak or disorganised .
The British Expiditionary Force was very well organised , fully mechanised {the first in the world and only such army then} and the Matilda II Infantry Tanks they brought were virtually unkillable except for 8.8cm FlaK guns that were very easy to spot and avoid , yet they lost .

Had Gaul not been torn by civil conflict , they would have not only soundly beat Caesars' forces , but likely have invaded Roman territory with great success . At their best , they were more powerful than most people realise by far these days .

You don't seem to understand just what a warrior society can produce in way of fighting forces .
Consider that the Maoris who were stone age tribesmen and had far fewer numbers that the Gauls had when Caesar attacked managed to force the British Empire who had soldiers every bit as well trained as Roman Legionaires {whom were basically the model Britain patterned their troops on} to fight three separate wars {and Britain nearly gave up at one point !} and did so well that their language is taught to all New Zealand children in schools today .
That was stone age tribesmen often wiping the floor with British riflemen ! That is what a "barbarian" warrior society can do when it is at its' best !

[TenkiSoratoti_]

The British Expiditionary Force was very well organised , fully mechanised {the first in the world and only such army then} and the Matilda II Infantry Tanks they brought were virtually unkillable except for 8.8cm FlaK guns that were very easy to spot and avoid , yet they lost.

Britain with-drew from France because Germany attacked by surprise. The Blitzkrieg Hitler unleashed was rumbling forward with unstoppable force. Even with the skill of the British soldier and his superior training in combat, they could not stop the overwhelming force of a 6 year prepared merciless killing machine.

the British Empire who had soldiers every bit as well trained as Roman Legionaires

Britain modelled her army's on the Roman Legions? I thought everyone did

How can you generalise with the Maori War? It wasn't big enough and the Imperial troops were forced to fight un-conventionally

I seriously cannot understand why everyone picks on the British Army when it is arguably the most successful fighting machine on this planet. Pick on other armies, I know quite a few that you could quite happily base your examples on.

[SaFe]

Hello@all,

i'm looking forward to this great mod and i want to give you support.
My english isn't the best, but i've took my history exam in germanic history during roman times.So, if you need some input or information i'm more than happy to help.

Greetings from Ladenburg(b.t.w. a roman castell in former times)

P.S.
Hey, just recognized the right place to post this.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Just a question, what is going to happen to the new lusitanian faction and will it still be implemented ? If Iberians will equals all from the Iberian peninsula.

I'm still deciding if it is worth it to make a Lusitanii faction. For sure there will be four new Lusitanian units (I'll mod them), but the feasability of a weak faction is in question. A probable solution will be to include them in a reworked Iberian faction (4 new Lusitanii units + 5 new Celtiberian units, as well as some reworked Iberian units). No Iberian Bullshite Warriors!!!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I've been reprehended. Sorry all.

Don't get offended. Nothing personal. But we need to separate specific info. The EB thread at the Colosseum was getting extremelly confusing. This info separation makes it more approachable.

* Send me a copy? ..please! (davehas12@hotmail.com)

Eager, hey?

Mate you you've done an awesome job here. Well done! I should have photoshop in a day or too if I can offer any help?

If you're capable with PSP, sure. What's your proficiency with it?


BTW, is PSYCHO and PSYCHO V the same Australian guy? That is, YOU?

Vercingetorix, again a huge thanks for making all this possible.

Yeap. He is the MAN!!!

Khelvan, I'm willing to test the Gauls and Brits if need be.

I've put you in the testing team.