Europa Barbarorum

[khelvan]

Greetings!

You have found the workplace for the development of our community mod, Europa Barbarorum. This RTW mod is intended to shape the world, units, and gameplay to be as realistic as possible.

This thread will be used to facilitate the technical aspects of creating the mod, from assigning tasks to status reports. If you are looking for our ongoing discussion regarding historical research, you can find it here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=33417

Current status:

We have released v0.1 for internal alpha testing.

Cheers,

-khel

[khelvan]

Please allow me to kick off this party!

I am relatively new to the modding scene, having done only a bit of code work on Battlefield 1942, but I find I have a real passion for it, and for the numbers behind the game system. My primary focus has been on building and unit balance, the population growth and economic systems, and the battle system. I also have many references on the classical Romans, and to a smaller extent the Greeks, so I have been delving into that quite a bit.

I have a strong background in project management and so I would like to offer my services to assist us in coming to a common understanding of our goals, keep us all working toward those goals, and keep the community informed of our status.

From my experience playing with the code so far, I see the following areas which need leadership:

-campaign map/province/city changes
-faction name changes/new faction implementation
-unit changes/new unit implementation
-battle system changes
-naval battle changes
-economic/population model changes

Basically, while it makes sense to break up work based on different factions, for instance, someone is going to have to be in charge of bringing it all together, since these changes impact the same files.

In addition, we should think about how to go about creating and releasing the mod. I think everyone would agree that it makes sense to move in steps. I suggest that the first step should be to make changes to existing units and factions, and to make the best of what we were given, since work can be done on new factions and units while this is happening, and that work will be much more time consuming.

So, there is a lot to be done. I suggest we all post our skills and interests, pick some members for the positions of responsibility, and provide our suggestions on what portions you would like to see worked on first, so we can set some priorities.

As I said above, I volunteer to keep an eye on the goals, tasks, and status of the project. I can also continue my work on the population growth/economic side of things. I have some free time to spread around, if others have no interest in some of the other things I have been working on. Though I think it makes sense to spread the work out, so we can get things done in a timely matter.

I look forward to working with you all!

Cheers,

-khel

[Vercingetorix]

Pyscho V asked me a few days ago If I would be willing to help and join up with you guys. I readily agreed :)

I can help in the following department: unit changes/new unit implementation.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Pyscho V asked me a few days ago If I would be willing to help and join up with you guys. I readily agreed :)

I can help in the following department: unit changes/new unit implementation.

Welcome, Vercingetorix!!! I'm honoured by the fact that you want to join our project.

As for what I'll do:

-3d unit changes (skinning and modelling - beware, I'm slow at it).
-Coordinating info about unit changes, specific to the units needing alteration.
-Coordinating Historical info (in the other thread).

[Steppe Merc]

Well, I'm horrible at the modding, very slow and I get distracted easily. Mabye we can make a list of units that:
a. Are fine as they are (Romans)
b. Ok, but need a few touches. (I think the Greeks, right?)
c. Very sad, but salvagable if need be. These need to be totally reskinned (aka all shirtless barbarians, the pajama Parthians, etc)
d. These units must be taken out, and everyone must forget that they ever existed (Screaming women, breast cup Amazons, etc.)
e. New units that should be added.

[khelvan]

Sounds good, Steppe Merc. The first step, in my opinion, is to get people in charge of particular areas of the mod. For instance, someone in charge of unit implementation and balance (Amyar?). Once that person is in place he or she could get moving on the steps we want to take with units (for instance, getting the current factions in order) and laying out the changes necessary.

[PSYCHO V]

Good job khelvan, warm welcome Vercingetrix!

Ok,for myself:

Interest in order of preference:

1) Gauls / Celtiberians
2) Britons
3) Germans
4) Iberians

Can offer research and commentary. I'll be picking up photoshop in a week so will try my hand at skinning. Never attempted modding before but pretty proficient with PS. Hopefully with some help on the tech side from you blokes I'll be able to help


I think it's important to provide a stable product. We need to build the trust, repour with the community. Too many mods suffer from errors etc. May I suggest that:

A) We should start with minor fixes (possibly re-doing the units) and work our way through.
B) Thoroughly test all changes for bugs

Question re units:

What do you guys think about generally keeping the same units as per current game and modding them to be more correct;

Or do you think we should just overhaul the whole unit structure from the outset?


my2bob

[khelvan]

My initial thought was to work with the factions and units we have been given, to balance things out as we can, before moving on to adding a lot of content.

I have actually been taking steps to do so, and would love some help in putting out something stable that includes a few key improvements.

My wish list for this included removing ahistorical units, rebalancing the factions, moving quite a few provinces to different factions, renaming several factions, rebalancing a few units, and making a few changes to the Roman tech tree. If someone wants to do some basic skinning to modify a few existing units to make some "new" ones, that would be great.

Things I've done so far (which may or may not be included in the above, depending on the folks we put in charge of the various tasks):

-Gave Carthage more gold, ships, and several provinces, as well as more aggressive AI
-Adjusted unit movement speed and kill speed
-Reduced population growth rate
-Increased requirements for Imperial Palace (i.e. for Marian reforms)

If this is the route we're going to take, with a small step at first, I really need to sit down and chat with someone who understands better than I do with my limited reading how ancient combat played out, and how we can best manipulate the system to represent it. Both ground and naval combat can be tweaked. We also need to collect a list of which provinces should go to which factions, which units need to go and which that stay need to be tweaked, and anything else that can make the existing factions/units/provinces/battles look more historical.

Many things that you would want to tweak, can be tweaked. If you think something could be changed, ask - you would be surprised what we can change. We could add names to a family tree, for instance.

New provinces, factions, and units that require new models/animations probably needs to wait for future versions.

The first step has to be getting folks in charge of the various areas of responsibility. So step up and volunteer! The work won't get done without you folks ;)

-khel

[Stefan the Berserker]

I'll see what I can do, as I bought the Game yesterday I have no real insight how what can be changed...

Initially I would rather say that the Barbarian Units are strangely weak and the Borders are wrong:

- Germania Superior is Gaulish in 260 B.C.
- Belgae should be Rebel, how sould it be British?

For further things I'll first tryout for myself what's possible...

[Steppe Merc]

Huge problem that I noted: mercanaries need to be totally different units. So you can't have a Gaul mercanary unit unless you create a whole new unit that's specifically a mercanary called Gaul Mercanary or some such. And since there is a unit cap (I think), we either need to find a way around this or have units that are normally mercs trainable.

[khelvan]

Not true - I was able to add "barb cavalry dacian" units to Numidia by tacking on a single line in the North Africa section of the mercenaries file. Granted, the unit had the "grey peasant" unit card, but it was still hireable as a mercenary in that area without creating a different unit.

[Oleander Ardens]

The Economy section would suit me well, as I study it as well as History. I researched most European factions, especially the Germans and Celts and the Scythians and Sarmantians for EB with Angadil. I also could advise about the missile weapons and balance them. I have only limited mod-experience, but I usually learn very fast when I focus on something.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


For fast changes:

I would outright remove the Gaul Forester and the Chosen Archer Warband for the Germans and give them instead the "Archer Warband". The Gauls should get a Slinger, the Germans a Warband similar to the Britain and Gaul while having their Phalanx Warband only available at higher levels. No Axemen and Chosen Axemen for the Germans, instead a "Chosen Swordsmen"
No Warhounds.

This are just very small and very fast changes, but the gameplay would get far more historic as you can not rely on your superarchers and wardogs...

Cheers
OA

[Hagbard la Suede]

Uhm,removing the axemen?
And replace them with swordsmen?
I say give em a shirt instead.

[Oleander Ardens]

Well there are very very few findings of axes in germanic warrior graves, although in some regions the axe was more important than in others. Southern Sweden was surly on of this, and may even have been the originator of the throwing axe. I have seen a rockcarving of a Swedish "francisca"

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ight=franciska

Anyway a German unit with a sword is a must, the Axemen could be restricted the Scandinavian province..

Cheers
OA

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

For instance, someone in charge of unit implementation and balance (Amyar?). Once that person is in place he or she could get moving on the steps we want to take with units (for instance, getting the current factions in order) and laying out the changes necessary.

OK. I'll take that job. Tomorrow, I'll put a list organized in topics like Steppe Merc proposed. Later this week, I'll start posting specific unit characteristics to be modified (including pics).

Mouzafphaerre has given us a very helpfull advice on organizing info and keep the MOD info from confusing us:

To post specific threads in the RTW/Modification forum for each area of modification. We can divide them under topics like:

-Text files (modding stats, balance and gameplay alterations...)
-Graphic files modification (all concerning unit, flags, colours, etc...)
-...
-...

Anyone care to comment? Maybe give your own proposals?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Good job khelvan, warm welcome Vercingetrix!

Ok,for myself:

Interest in order of preference:

1) Gauls / Celtiberians
2) Britons
3) Germans
4) Iberians

Can offer research and commentary. I'll be picking up photoshop in a week so will try my hand at skinning. Never attempted modding before but pretty proficient with PS. Hopefully with some help on the tech side from you blokes I'll be able to help

Don't worry. The proficiency with PSP is the most important aspect. The rest is just paying attention to DJ's Graphic Guides. Since I'll be involved with unit graphics, we can coordinate info and exchange ideas and doubts about the skinnning.

I think it's important to provide a stable product. We need to build the trust, repour with the community. Too many mods suffer from errors etc. May I suggest that:

A) We should start with minor fixes (possibly re-doing the units) and work our way through.
B) Thoroughly test all changes for bugs

Hey, PSYCHO V!!! I want to play the MOD and I hate bugs!! The stability won't be a problem, because we'll never release a version that is not bug free. As for the hard-coded issues, that will depend on CA patches.

Question re units:

What do you guys think about generally keeping the same units as per current game and modding them to be more correct;

Or do you think we should just overhaul the whole unit structure from the outset?

IMHO, baby stepps, please!! Jumping the gun will only make it harder to debugg.

[Steppe Merc]

Mabye we could split the stuff about the units in groups? I could do the Parthians, and mabye the Scythians, but I don't know to much about anything else.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

My initial thought was to work with the factions and units we have been given, to balance things out as we can, before moving on to adding a lot of content.

Agreed.

New provinces, factions, and units that require new models/animations probably needs to wait for future versions.

Agreed.

The first step has to be getting folks in charge of the various areas of responsibility. So step up and volunteer! The work won't get done without you folks ;)

Have you heard him? Get to work, boys!

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'll see what I can do, as I bought the Game yesterday I have no real insight how what can be changed...

Initially I would rather say that the Barbarian Units are strangely weak and the Borders are wrong:

- Germania Superior is Gaulish in 260 B.C.
- Belgae should be Rebel, how sould it be British?

For further things I'll first tryout for myself what's possible...

Great ot hear from you Stefan. We really need your imput.

About CA's decision to give Belgae to the Britons, I think it concerns the lack of provinces in the British Isles. The Britons wouln't be able to survive without Belgae. But you're right, Belgae should be rebel. The way to solve this problem is to make more. BKB has been doing it already. The Gaul-Germanic amounts to the same.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Huge problem that I noted: mercanaries need to be totally different units. So you can't have a Gaul mercanary unit unless you create a whole new unit that's specifically a mercanary called Gaul Mercanary or some such. And since there is a unit cap (I think), we either need to find a way around this or have units that are normally mercs trainable.

Don't worry. In MTW, it was the same. Total maximum for RTW is 300 units. In RTW, there about 200, so there will be enough room for mercs.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Mabye we could split the stuff about the units in groups? I could do the Parthians, and mabye the Scythians, but I don't know to much about anything else.

Mouzafphaerre mentioned that we should do preciselly that. The groups should be divided according to interests and working preferences.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Here is a template regarding the interess groups. I've taken some liberties. Correct me, please. So far we have:

-Gameplay balancing, economical and strategical data, strategical map:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...

-Unit editing and implementation, 2d and 3d graphics:

Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
Aymar de Bois Mauri
reconspy???
Steppe Merc???

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Stefan the Berserker???
Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Steppe Merc???
Hagbard la Suede???
...
...


Help me complete this, regarding topics and volunteers...

[Stefan the Berserker]

I tried to create a new Unit by adding this to export_descr_unit.txt:

type greek hoplite elite
dictionary greek_hoplite_elite ; Armoured Hoplites
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier barb_warguard, 40, 0, 1.3
officer barb_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr spear
stat_sec 7, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 6, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 8, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 640, 210, 70, 100, 640
ownership germans

The Game started normally and I could even select the "Hoplite" for germanics in skirmish. When the Skirmish started they appeared, as wished with the Warguards-Model... they marched and change formation without any problem, but if they attack the game screws up...

[khelvan]

First, did you add a "new" unit or did you merely edit the unit that already exists with the same name?

Sorry, I should be more clear - did you add an entirely new entry into the text file, and you copied the greek names and all? Or did you just edit the existing entry so that the call for greek elite hoplites gives you units that look like warbands?

Because if you added a "new" unit with the same type and dictionary call I am surprised your game didn't CTD upon loading.

Also, add -show_err to the command line, load up the game, then exit once you get to the main menu. This should bring up an error message to let you know that there is a problem somewhere. Unfortunately you don't get the message if you let it crash, you have to exit yourself.

[Steppe Merc]

Umm, I suck at skinning and stuff.... but I can make suggestions, and I would gladly play test. I'm ok when it comes to unit stats, but when it comes to skinning...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Umm, I suck at skinning and stuff.... but I can make suggestions, and I would gladly play test. I'm ok when it comes to unit stats, but when it comes to skinning...

OK. No problem. Testing and gameplay balance then.

The list has been changed to incorporate khelvan's suggestions:

-campaign map/province/city changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens???
...
...
...

-faction name changes/new faction implementation:

...
...
...
...
...

-unit changes/new unit implementation/3d and 2d graphics:

Vercingetorix
PSYCHO V
Aymar de Bois Mauri
Stefan the Berserker???
reconspy???

-battle system changes:

Steppe Merc
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-naval battle changes:

Colovion
...
...
...
...

-economic/population model changes:

khelvan
Oleander Ardens
...
...
...

-Coordination of the EB Historical thread:

Teutonic Knight
Aymar de Bois Mauri
...
...
...

-Gameplay testing and debugging:

Colovion
Ranika
Steppe Merc
Hagbard la Suede???
...

More imput people, please...



Updated 3:25 - 10/17/04

[Colovion]

Put me down for the Gameplay/Debugging. I don't know the first thing about actually doing the mods though - so the most I can do (right now) is just give input on the things being discussed.

Oh and Naval changes? Perhaps just tweaking the AI a bit regarding Naval warfare - other than that what would this one be all about? Tweaking when boats become available? What were you thinking on these lines? or have you and foresight where that section will go?

[Ranika]

I'd like to help, but not sure exactly what I'd do. I do know a lot of the indigenous names of Celtic cities in Gaul and Britain, and Hibernia (though, Tara is correct anyway). I know a lot of bits and pieces of things in the barbarian cultures, a good deal in the Celts, but there's already a lot of help for that, and only a few things bout the Germans. As far as technical aspects of the game go, I can't do much outside of stat editting. I could potentially skin, but I lack photoshop right now, so won't commit to that

If there is anyway I can help, sign me up for whatever, and I'll do what I can.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Put me down for the Gameplay/Debugging. I don't know the first thing about actually doing the mods though - so the most I can do (right now) is just give input on the things being discussed.

Great. You've been added to the list.

Oh and Naval changes? Perhaps just tweaking the AI a bit regarding Naval warfare - other than that what would this one be all about? Tweaking when boats become available? What were you thinking on these lines? or have you and foresight where that section will go?

khelvan knows it better than I. I've only got through the txt files recently, but it seems that the tweaks that we can do concern winning chances, cost, build time, preference of construction and money diverted to the navy by each faction.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I'd like to help, but not sure exactly what I'd do. I do know a lot of the indigenous names of Celtic cities in Gaul and Britain, and Hibernia (though, Tara is correct anyway). I know a lot of bits and pieces of things in the barbarian cultures, a good deal in the Celts, but there's already a lot of help for that, and only a few things bout the Germans. As far as technical aspects of the game go, I can't do much outside of stat editting. I could potentially skin, but I lack photoshop right now, so won't commit to that

If there is anyway I can help, sign me up for whatever, and I'll do what I can.

You can still help about Historical info in the other thread. Here with deal with technical questions only. However, you can still volunteer to test the MOD and help stat editing in your category of choise. I presume it concerns units, right?