On realism and the kill rate - RTW is a game!

[sapi]

Right, i'm sure anyone who has visited these forums since rome came out has seen the complaints on realism, on how fast units are killed, and a horde of other things. What i think people are missing is that Rome Total War was designed first and foremost to be a game. No, it was not made to be the perfect simulation of warfare in roman times, but just to be something that is FUN. If RTW was perfectly realastic, then it would not be as enjoyable a game, as some factions (read: romans, carthage, greeks etc.) would be overwhelmingly powerful, and some would be extremely weak. Now while some factions do have weak/strong militarys, this is balenced by something else, such as an advantageous trade position or financial problems. If you want a historically accurate game, well, download one of the mods (and boy they came out quick), but if you just want a fun bit of gaming, play RTW and enjoy.

There have also been some complaints about the kill rate, and how some units are overpowering. In roman times, people were killed very slowly (no machine guns :)), but would you really get fun out of sitting in front of your monitor, watching your units kill the enemy painfully slowly? I don't think so. I would get more enjoyment out of a game that is focused on the tactics that you can pull off, and if done successfully, hope to win the battle by using. This is RTW. Would you really like to have it so that your only chance to win a seige is to attack when you outnumber the defenders 3 to 1, where archers can kill entire units in a few volleys? Where your best chance to win said seige is to starve out the defenders? That's not fun, but that's what it was like.

I'm not saying that RTW is perfect; it certainly is not, but try to think of it as a game, something you get fun out of, and you might begin to like it a little more.

[Colovion]

I stopped reading after you said to use tactics with fast kill rates.

HAHAHA! that made my night

[The Hun]

I think people complained because the game changed so drastically from MTW. In MTW you had the time to manoeuvre whereas RTW was super fast, fine if you want to pause and issue commands or are more interested in the strategy map. A game it may be but when a game is given a theme I think things change otherwise why not give out machine guns. I don't want to see cav charge into rear of a phalanx and kill them all in less than 10 seconds. I don't call it painfully slow on MTW, I call it time enough to react or time enough to at least enjoy a battle. Epic it would not be if it lasts only 5 minutes, why bother fighting at all in that case. In any case the most complaints are about issues that leave the online game in a real mess.
And I don't think entire units were ever destroyed in a few arrow volleys

[Arakasi]

I think the kill rate and speed does need to be reduced, but not to as slow as MTW was. Somewhere in between vanilla RTW and MTW is fine with me, and that's what I've been working with.

[sapi]

I think the kill rate is okay, but i see your point about a single charge killing an entire unit - it's just stupid. On the topic of kill rates, has anyone noticed that a unit on the top of a wall will always fight to the death instead of routing? Whether intentionall or not, it's a nice touch.

Ok, i was exaggerating about the archers killing in a single volley, but they did do a lot of damage. Archers are stronger in RTW than in MTW and this is much better :)

[DisruptorX]

Medieval had a slider for all of you ADD kiddies, RTW just has overdrive as the default. Thus, out of the box, RTW is quit-to-desktop-in-anger bad.

[Ptah]

In real life usually a group of men who are dying too fast tend to back up and regroup instead of staying there and getting their guts poked out. Try controlling individual units as much as possible and you'll see that they don't melt away like some people claim.

The kill rate and moving speed is all fine. Its the players that fail to cope with RTW.

On the other hand, considering the difficulties of one man controlling multiple units with a mouse, it would have been good to have some more control options such as "passive mode" for the infantry, where the infantry would engage but not at full force but sort of act like in a "skirmish" manner. This kind of option would have been very nifty so you could set your men to engage but not stick around at difficult attacks, but gradually retreat as they are fighting, so you could go to control some other units while the rest of the soldiers in this mode fight on.

[DisruptorX]

The kill rate and moving speed is all fine. Its the players that fail to cope with RTW.
.

I can "cope" with the very much not fine kill rate and moving speed. The problem is that it isn't fun in the least. Any game that has me swearing at my units is not relaxing or enjoyable to me at all. I own warcraft 3, I'd play it instead if I wanted green unit markers, a 1/4 screen interface, unit confirmations, druids, and speedy gameplay(although still slower than RTW). The differance is that WC actually has pathfinding and fewer bugs.

[chemchok]

The annoying thing about the kill rate is that I rarely have any time to simply sit back and watch the melees close up during a major battle. I'm too busy monitoring my flanks, chasing down routers, and watching out for friendly fire. I mean, why did CA make such gorgeous battle animations, only to speed up the pace so much you can't even enjoy it?

[sapi]

How to enjoy 101:

Play as the romans, and attack a weak faction such as the gauls, but so that the battle will be fairly even. Only use infantry. Watch your good troops plow through the warbands, but slowly as there are so many of them. Enjoy the animations.

[Red Harvest]

I think the kill rate is okay, but i see your point about a single charge killing an entire unit - it's just stupid. On the topic of kill rates, has anyone noticed that a unit on the top of a wall will always fight to the death instead of routing? Whether intentionall or not, it's a nice touch.

Ok, i was exaggerating about the archers killing in a single volley, but they did do a lot of damage. Archers are stronger in RTW than in MTW and this is much better :)

The kill rate really hurts the battle experience, so I hope they either cut it considerably or give us an option to slow it down. In MTW the battles were much more fun to command and watch. Fortunately, the strategic game is more interesting in RTW.

The archery for the "elite" units is certainly overdone. I see more elite archers/slingers than standard units in battle. Archery was not very powerful in this time period. The Greeks did well facing hordes of them, and the Romans didn't put an emphasis on it either.

Both STW and MTW's archery models had more depth to them from what I've seen so far. In RTW I've never really had a battle where I had any complex archery moves or positioning. I only do minimal movement for height, and trees don't seem to be very important (for archers or anything else.) They get lots of kills though. Shooting at extreme range seems very accurate and doesn't change much with closer ranges. I can turn archers to a nearly perpendicular position and they still ALL shoot? Depth of the archer formation was critical in MTW. Rear ranks didn't shoot. There was friendly fire, and portions of the line that were blocked would not shoot. IMO, bring back MTW's archery model and you have an improvement.

[Del Arroyo]

It is very sad for me to hear how the tactical game has been so gutted However much the strategic game may have been improved.

[hotingzilla]

I seem to see arrows flying past their target more often.

So shooting at the backs of an enemy while engaging your own troops with them on the other side actually causes more friendly fire.

[csebal]

I think people complained because the game changed so drastically from MTW. In MTW you had the time to manoeuvre whereas RTW was super fast, fine if you want to pause and issue commands or are more interested in the strategy map. A game it may be but when a game is given a theme I think things change otherwise why not give out machine guns. I don't want to see cav charge into rear of a phalanx and kill them all in less than 10 seconds. I don't call it painfully slow on MTW, I call it time enough to react or time enough to at least enjoy a battle. Epic it would not be if it lasts only 5 minutes, why bother fighting at all in that case. In any case the most complaints are about issues that leave the online game in a real mess.
And I don't think entire units were ever destroyed in a few arrow volleys

Actually, Cavalry charge is what troubles most it seems.

I agree, that unit speeds are completely messed up, how on earth does a foot soldier outrun my cavalry? Fatigue should have a lot more effect (a fresh light cav has no chance to catch an exhausted heavy cav fleeing the field).

I think those who complain about cav charges have never seen a horse in real life... imagine 100 horses charging into a group of tightly packed man. Those not killed by the horses will be killed by the soldiers sitting on them.

What i do not like is the morale effect of cavalry. Even on very hard, if you have 3 units of cavalry (almost no matter what size) charge into an enemy from the front, they almost instantly start to run. Frankly... i start to think about not using any cav in the game, as i can make 2000+ man armies (spearman and swordsman - gaul) run with about 4 general units (so 4 units of heavy cav, each having about 40 men).

Now here is the catch, my charges never kill too many men, and if the enemy would stand just a few seconds longer, half my cav would be gone. But they do not stand, they just run, and from that point on, the battle is down to a 'coward chase'.

Thats why i think, that the biggest problem with cavalry is its effect on moral, not the fast kill rate. If you are 'dumb' enough and let a cav charge into the rear of a phalanx (or manage to outmaneuver an enemy phalanx with your cav), then that phalanx is as good as dead.

[csebal]

I have to add, that im posting from an SP standpoint, taking the existance of pause into account. I definitely realize, that the current game pace is kinda fast for MP gaming.

My question there: wouldnt it better to have a game speed multiplier, instead of messing with unit balance and kill rate and stuff, just because MP is too fast?

[Akka]

Uh, Sapi, sorry, but your post is completely off-the-mark.

Right, i'm sure anyone who has visited these forums since rome came out has seen the complaints on realism, on how fast units are killed, and a horde of other things. What i think people are missing is that Rome Total War was designed first and foremost to be a game. No, it was not made to be the perfect simulation of warfare in roman times, but just to be something that is FUN.

And it can be a game that try to reflect as accurately as possible battles of the times.
I wonder why I see so often this stupid argument "it's a game, it doesn't have to be realistic".
Aren't F1 simulations realistics ?
Why this stupid a priori that fun != realistic ?
(this is even more stupid considering that during the past years, the games who have bring something new in the game world, and had a big success, were precisely the ones including more realism...)

If RTW was perfectly realastic, then it would not be as enjoyable a game, as some factions (read: romans, carthage, greeks etc.) would be overwhelmingly powerful, and some would be extremely weak.

Breaking news : some factions (Romans, Greeks...) ARE overwhelmingly powerful, and some ARE extremely weak.
And that's good. I can't even imagine how ridiculous it would be to see the mighty legions of Rome falling against an inferior number of gallic basic swordsmen.

Now while some factions do have weak/strong militarys, this is balenced by something else, such as an advantageous trade position or financial problems.

No. And that's good.

If you want a historically accurate game, well, download one of the mods (and boy they came out quick), but if you just want a fun bit of gaming, play RTW and enjoy.

If I want a historically accurate game, I buy the most historically accurate game there is, and the Total War serie is precisely that. That's precisely why it upsets so many people that they slowly quit the "accurate and realist" settings to start to tend toward "action wargame for kiddies".

There have also been some complaints about the kill rate, and how some units are overpowering. In roman times, people were killed very slowly (no machine guns :)), but would you really get fun out of sitting in front of your monitor, watching your units kill the enemy painfully slowly? I don't think so. I would get more enjoyment out of a game that is focused on the tactics that you can pull off, and if done successfully, hope to win the battle by using. This is RTW.

I fail to see how slightly reducing the killing speed would make the enemy dying "painfully slowly". It would give the time to actually maneuver the units before the fight ends, and to WATCH the fight.

Would you really like to have it so that your only chance to win a seige is to attack when you outnumber the defenders 3 to 1, where archers can kill entire units in a few volleys? Where your best chance to win said seige is to starve out the defenders? That's not fun, but that's what it was like.

That's actually what's like in the game. And I'm not complaining about it. But you definitely seem to have a strange perception of this game, as you describe how it actually is, and say that if wouldn't be fun if it was actually like that

I'm not saying that RTW is perfect; it certainly is not, but try to think of it as a game, something you get fun out of, and you might begin to like it a little more.

I think that RTW is one the best game ever made, and certainly the best game I had since several years.
This doesn't make me unable to see the flaws and speak about them in order for them to be adressed.

[ChaosDrake]

I think that RTW is one the best game ever made, and certainly the best game I had since several years.

yes thats right the best game ever!

and the thing with marching speed and killing speed is a thing mhm some like it some dont like it whats the prob?
you have many options there are 2 mods too reduce the speed install it and enjoy for the guys that think rtw is too fast and i believe those excellent modders here are doing something for everyone of us.
and you can always press the pause button in sp mode!

[Akka]

As I said, it's not because you like something, that you can't criticize it.
MTW had a crappy diplomatic system, that was improved in RTW. Because people complained about it.
It's not that MTW was a bad game, it was an excellent one. But that doesn't prevent people to see the flaws and adress them.

Well, RTW is excellent, but it has flaws. Among these flaws, a too fast killing rate. Don't see what's the problem to tell it to CA.

[The Hun]

[QUOTE=Ptah]

The kill rate and moving speed is all fine. Its the players that fail to cope with RTW.

QUOTE]

Hah!!! Yes it is all just fine......I think not. MTW I played MP only, here on RTW I decided to give SP a try. The AI will just use rush tactics, this is fine, just throw in your forces and within minutes you have the outcome! Is that enjoyable? You have no replay to go back and watch 'close up' so there you go, a so called huge epic battle settled in no time at all. Do you think chasing archers with cav and not being able to catch them is fine?
CA do a lot of research into historical units and such, how can people say it is not meant to reflect history, that it is just a game?
Yes we can all use a mod to get accuracy, I already do, the point is why should it be necessary?
As DisruptorX said...I can cope but at what expense? Enjoyment, that's what!!
Akka has explained the situation perfectly IMO

[BDC]

I use the kill rate and speed mods. It's absolutely unplayable properly otherwise. I STILL need to pause a lot, something I hate doing and didn't need to in MTW or STW. Do these people ride scooters or something?!

[ChaosDrake]

i dont have those problems i always get with my cav routers only when its cav then i dont get em.
for me is rome total war perfect and i think for many others too.
and you can use tactics!
look on the keyboard there is a thing looks like that "P" press it and you have the time too make decisions, that is what i used when i bring a huge force into battle, with smaller forces is it not necessary(for me).
the first time ive played rome i thought oh my god thats crap, but later it was in my eyes the best game ever.
you must see it like this the first game of the total war series was shogun, then came medieval and now rome.
for me who buy first medieval and later shogun total war, is shogun the crappiest game ever. for other not who buy it first.
thats the same here you think all it must be the same like medieval but its not medieval this is something new.
i hope you understand what i mean.

[The Hun]

I can understand you ChaosDrake but you will not be able to press 'P' in the multiplay foyer and the fact that using pause is why many people say the game speed is ok is the very reason why I think it is way too fast. That and the fact that armies have never moved like that

[Tyrac]

I want a slider where I can CHOSE ANY SPEED I WANT from stop to triple speed.

The game is too fast. Right now a battle is
Deploy
Start battle
PAUSE
look at everything
arrange and give orders
Unpause
5 sec or less PAUSE
Re order units etc
unpause
.05 sec
Pause
tell units to RUN :P
Unpause
watch for 5 sec as the uits start to make contact
Pause
Fix my units that are supposed to be grouped but are acting like they are not.
SCREAM AT THE STUPID ARCHERS as they take out my front line troops.
unpause
watch 3 units die and route as my cav flanks them and charges
pause
try to sort out the units that are in the broken ones and turn off my stupid archers before they slaughter my cavalry.
etc.etc.etc.

I want to WATCH THE FIGHT dammit. I do not want to pause more then not.
PLEASE let me slow the speed down without useing mods that change things and may effect balance in unintended ways.

[Red Harvest]

and you can use tactics!
look on the keyboard there is a thing looks like that "P" press it and you have the time too make decisions, that is what i used when i bring a huge force into battle, with smaller forces is it not necessary(for me).

If I have to use pause repeatedly to use tactics (and I do)...then the game is running much too fast. Stopping the action every few seconds saps much of the fun out of it. STW and MTW battles were more entertaining for me. With MTW I would pause some battles a few times to get initial arrangements, deal with forest unit placement, etc, but I let the battles run in real time for the most part. RTW battles look better, but it all happens so fast I don't get to watch them, so much of the eye candy is lost on me.

[Colovion]

^ you got it

and it makes me angry >:(

[Accounting Troll]

I don't have a problem with killing speed as most battles in clasical times tended to be short affairs. Even in medieval times, a battle that lasted more than two hours was considered to be unusual.

According to Julius Ceaser's account of the Gallic Wars, the Gauls were quick to rout when things started going wrong. In the battles between the Greek city states, the weaker side would also break and run very quickly.

[Hannibal_Barkar]

I didnt consider the speed to be much of a problem ( I didnt do MP yet) and somehwat liked the fast pace. Now I installed the RomeTotalrealism mod, because I was getting annoyed by the campaign issues of the game. The kill speed /movement speed mods are built into that mod. I must say that surprisingly I like the battles much much better now.


I suggest everybody try the kill speed / movement mods first and then post an opinion on whats best :P




H.

[Ptah]

The annoying thing about the kill rate is that I rarely have any time to simply sit back and watch the melees close up during a major battle. I'm too busy monitoring my flanks, chasing down routers, and watching out for friendly fire. I mean, why did CA make such gorgeous battle animations, only to speed up the pace so much you can't even enjoy it?

You could always use the replay to sit back and watch the flick. Or were you expecting to do that during you were in control of the battle? Or do you mean campaign battles?

Now here is the catch, my charges never kill too many men, and if the enemy would stand just a few seconds longer, half my cav would be gone. But they do not stand, they just run, and from that point on, the battle is down to a 'coward chase'.

Wouldn't you be compelled to run when you suddenly feel somebody's coming into impale your head? Be it four guys or forty guys charging in from behind, a band of soldiers engripped in fear do not think about what is going on - they think about how to run away and live. If you think fighters locked up in a brutal melee turn around, stop and think 'oh, its only four guys, not a problem' then go merrily fighting again then you've got the wrong picture.

And it can be a game that try to reflect as accurately as possible battles of the times. I wonder why I see so often this stupid argument "it's a game, it doesn't have to be realistic".

Aren't F1 simulations realistics ?

Why this stupid a priori that fun != realistic ? (this is even more stupid considering that during the past years, the games who have bring something new in the game world, and had a big success, were precisely the ones including more realism...)

The problem lies in hordes of amateuers - us - thinking we have any real experiences fit to comment on reality. Face it - all our conceptions on reality are merely what we interpret through our meager experiences. When's the last time any one of us slashed a knife around someone? Thus in many cases these hordes of amateuers - us - , think that what we think about reality is reality itself. Perhaps, in this case, many people tend to confuse the experiences from one game - MTW - which they personally did not have much trouble with, and mix it up with another game - RTW - which, is out for only a month so far.

Basically the logic behind "realism", "kill rates", "movement speed" comments are based on; "Oops! This is so fast and confusing that I can't adapt to it just yet. Since I had no trouble with MTW, which must be more realistic since I can play that better(since, it is impossible that I, a good player, would never be incompetent so I would need continued practice and experience over time to adapt to something), it must be RTW that's unrealistic"

I fail to see how slightly reducing the killing speed would make the enemy dying "painfully slowly". It would give the time to actually maneuver the units before the fight ends, and to WATCH the fight.

Again. A general's task is to lead his armies to win, not to sit back and enjoy the large-scale gladitorial games.

Outmaneuvering the enemy isn't so hard against AIs since they're stupid.

Against human players, they are under the same conditions as I am. All one needs to be is simply be faster than the other guy. Your brain-eye-hand coordination doesn't automatically increase upon need. How long's this game been out? One month?

Hah!!! Yes it is all just fine......I think not. MTW I played MP only, here on RTW I decided to give SP a try. The AI will just use rush tactics, this is fine, just throw in your forces and within minutes you have the outcome! Is that enjoyable? You have no replay to go back and watch 'close up' so there you go, a so called huge epic battle settled in no time at all. Do you think chasing archers with cav and not being able to catch them is fine?

So you're basing your claims upon some AI algorithm that is inherently and immensely more stupid than humans, that doesn't have even the slightest grip of flexible tactical adaptation? What's that got to do with 'killing speed'? Sounds more like 'we could use a better AI' issue to me.

I use the kill rate and speed mods. It's absolutely unplayable properly otherwise. I STILL need to pause a lot, something I hate doing and didn't need to in MTW or STW. Do these people ride scooters or something?!

It could be that you're slow. Not to be personal or anything, but I'm quite curious as why nobody ever thinks that a problem perceived may be their own, and not the game. (btw, never felt any need to pause anything in campaign mode)

The game is too fast. Right now a battle is
Deploy
Start battle
PAUSE
look at everything
arrange and give orders
Unpause
..... *snip* .....
try to sort out the units that are in the broken ones and turn off my stupid archers before they slaughter my cavalry.
etc.etc.etc.

I want to WATCH THE FIGHT dammit. I do not want to pause more then not.
PLEASE let me slow the speed down without useing mods that change things and may effect balance in unintended ways.

I do the same thing, except I never have to press the 'pause' thing. I don't think I have a Cray computer for my brain, nor do I have 20 fingers and four arms. If I can do it, why can't you? Maybe you should set up practice missions to try and increase your reflexes. Doing the same thing over and over again does not necessarily make you better in it, unless you have a clear goal to become better in it.

I suggest this; try a practice custom battle mission at medium mode.

Enemy(AI) is Greece, 1x General Unit, 4x Archers(gold level arms), the rest of the positions are filled with Armoured Hoplites as much as the money goes. Human player will use no archers, no cavalry, no phalanx using infantry. Practice this until you can consistently beat that without having to use any pause buttons, and then try the campaign battles and tell me if that's too 'fast'.

Besides, if watching the battle is such a big problem, what you might be wanting to ask for is making it able to save replays for campaign battles.

If I have to use pause repeatedly to use tactics (and I do)...then the game is running much too fast.

Or, you're too slow.

Forming defensive lines, archery contests, making minor adjustments matching enemy moves, watching and analyzing everything he does, waiting the enemy to make the first move, giving battle orders and "enjoy the show" as they duke it out...this, is one "version" of reality we got used to, and MTW has got us to believe.

RTW is another and something different. Adapt to it friends.

[chemchok]

You could always use the replay to sit back and watch the flick. Or were you expecting to do that during you were in control of the battle? Or do you mean campaign battles?

Campaign battles, and yes, I did assume I would be able to enjoy the eye candy while I was in control (and not just in situations where I had overwhelming force).

[Puzz3D]

I use the kill rate and speed mods. It's absolutely unplayable properly otherwise. I STILL need to pause a lot, something I hate doing and didn't need to in MTW or STW. Do these people ride scooters or something?!

I use 20% slowdown on movement and the fighting speed slowdown mod, and I find the battles are more fun and more realistic. Plus, I can coordinate my units better. I couldn't stand the battles at the default speed. I was going to return the game until I tried these slowdown mods.