Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question

[frogbeastegg]

EDIT: This was originally started and investigated under 1.1. 1.2 made significant changes to phalanx units, so it may not be 100% accurate now.

The subject of today's froggy question to gather information for the guide is the phalanx. Yes, them yet again. This time it is a very simple, deceptively so, topic with no rank bonuses, stats, coding or anything to examine, nor any begging for a CA demigod to descend from on high and help.

Today's question: How do you get your phalanx to attack?

This might sound dumb, but it really is not. You see I find it impossible to get a phalanx to reliably engage in combat. At this point I should note in big, bold letters please do not reply with something entirely useless like "just right click on the enemy", if that worked I would not be posting this!. Also please do not tell me that the right shuffle is historical - I know, and it is irrelevant to this discussion.

There are several ways to try and get a phalanx to attack:

1. Leave the unit in guard mode and phalanx formation and right click the enemy once. This leads to, more often than not, the phalanx standing just out of range and shuffling to the right. They say they are fighting but they definitely are not; there is a definite gap between the spear/pike points and the enemy, no fighting animations are playing, and no one is dying. Alternatively the phalanx will sometimes lose its cohesion without doing much and will stand around as it is slaughtered, until suddenly remembering that death is an undesirable thing and fighting back in a piecemeal, disordered fashion using both swords and spears/pikes.

Occasionally this works, usually against units armed with swords who obligingly walk onto the spear/pike points. I can get it to produce a decent attack maybe one in every four attempts, and one disordered mess one in every four attempts. By attempts I mean clean, fresh situations, not wheeling about and moving in a combat situation after fighting for a while already. If you are already vaguely close to the enemy then they tend to lose cohesion and go into the piecemeal state described above. Fair enough; the phalanx is not famous for being manoeuvrable.

2. Have the phalanx in guard/phalanx mode and order them to move behind the enemy unit in a straight line so their path rams right into the enemy. This is recommended by CA on the Res Romanae.

This either works or kills your unit outright. Imagine a unit of 240 silver shield pikemen drawn up into 6 ranks. Imagine how deep that formation is. Now multiply that depth by 6 to get a distance. That is roughly the amount of empty space you need between your unit and the enemy for this to have a chance of working. If the gap is smaller then your phalanx tend to shoulder their weapons and walk right into the enemy and are cut down without even trying to fight back. If that gap is there then you have a roughly even chance of getting the pike push effect CA talk about, course if you don't your men just walk blindly ahead and die.

3. Let the enemy come to you; set up in guard/phalanx and never move.

Yes, this works each and every time unless your enemy has phalanx units too. Problem: This is useless in MP as no one is stupid enough to walk into the front of a phalanx. The AI is helpful like that; people aren't.


I spent about an hour testing this last night with [FF]Louis-St-Simurgh and [FF]Darkhalf and it was a farce, a real farce. We had units shuffling so far they ended up behind the enemy's lines and they still refused to hurt anyone. We had units walking right into forests of weapons and dying without even trying to fight back. We had units who stood there for minute after minute and never did anything more than shuffle to the right. Once Louis and Darkhalf managed to get in a position where a phalanx shuffled right into the spear points of another, mincing itself. Needless to say the minced phalanx wasn't doing anything much with the phalanx in front of it, the one it was supposed to be fighting. For that matter the phalanx it was supposed to be fighting was doing nothing much either.

We used the flat map, 'grassy flatlands', so there were no terrain/height issues. We took about 20 units each, including a couple of cavalry to see how they fared against a phalanx when charging into the flanks and rear, and we got maybe two satisfactory battles out of the whole thing. One of those was caused by Darkhalf leaving his phalanx units stationary while I ordered mine to move behind his from a very long (think the width of one full screen when zoomed out as far as it will go) distance. The other I am not sure; it didn't involve my units and it was getting very late.

I have also tested it in SP custom mode with the same sorts of results.

I've finished two Roman short campaigns now; I was thinking of playing the Greeks or Macedonians next but that idea has lost its appeal after these tests.

So, that's your task - find me a reliable way to make phalanx units fight, against both phalanx and non-phalanx units. In the current version of the guide the phalanx tactics are no more than "stand still, don't ever move and hope the AI is dumb enough to walk into your front." This is obviously no good at all.

[SwordsMaster]

Its not exactly a scientific proof, but.... if its of any use....

Yesterday, in my Roman campaign, I was assaulting Carthage. Among others I had a couple of merc phalanx units. And they DID attack.

Phalanx formation, defense mode OFF. double r-click on the enemy, the phalanx gets into formation and charges in perfect ranks. (At least it worked for me....)

What worried me is that they didnt even make an attempt to pursue, despite having the def-mode turned OFF..... might be a "phalanx formation" thing.

Hope this helps....

[Daevyll]

I've had succes with the following:

- Take unit out of phalanx formation
- walk/run up to within striking range of the enemy unit
- resume phalanx formation

This has the effect of instantly engaging the unit in battle, usually with quite good results.
It is most effective when used against a unit that is already engaged and thus cant really move out of the way/countercharge, but it can also work in a 'straight' engagement though the timing has to be spot-on.

Alternatively, I use several phalanxes to create a broad mobile 'no-go' area; they get very few kills, but take few as well. In effect they are used to get the enemy out of formation and enable other units to be more effective.

[Ktonos]

Phalanxes should at least be able to charge if not run. Their charge shock power against poor armored masses of warriors sometimes was evenmore decisive than a cavalry charge.

[Soulflame]

I've had succes with the following:

- Take unit out of phalanx formation
- walk/run up to within striking range of the enemy unit
- resume phalanx formation

This has the effect of instantly engaging the unit in battle, usually with quite good results.
It is most effective when used against a unit that is already engaged and thus cant really move out of the way/countercharge, but it can also work in a 'straight' engagement though the timing has to be spot-on.

This is the same tactic the AI seems to use when I fight him and he has phalanx units. So I guess there is certainly some merit for it. I haven't checked it myself, but this may yet be the best way I reckon.

[Akka]

I absolutely LOVE the phalanx ^^
I'm playing Romans again, and I really miss them. They are insanely powerful from the front, and if you ever catch an enemy in sandwitch between two of them, it's a real meatgrinder. I'm quite fond of the Greek factions, personnally.

So, how to make them fight ? Very easy.

Don't walk past the enemy. Sometimes they will push him back at spearpoint and slaughter him, but more often than not, he will hold on enough time for the hoplites to close in, lose the phalanx formation, and start hand-to-hand mêlée combat with sword, where they aren't really effective.

Don't simply right-click. It works about half the time, but as you said, the other half, they simply stay slightly out-of-rang of the enemy, and don't fight. Even if they go close enough to fight, anyway, they just scratch the opponent's frontline, without the meatgrinder power of the phalanx.

The solution is simple : make it walk JUST RIGHT IN FRONT of the enemy. That is, order them to walk so they will be about one meter from the front line. They will go, and then they will be in a "push position", where the enemy is in the reach of the spears.
And let the slaughter begins ^^


Edit : the Daevyll's method works often, too. Resuming phalanx formatin in the middle of a mêlée, often have incredibly good result.

[Excalibur Bane]

I've encountered this myself. I find any engagements involving phalanx or pikemen to be absolutely tedious at best, infuriating at worst. Forming a phalanx shouldn't even be a special function, they should by themselves to form it.

Let's take a typical example of phalanx vs. whatever. Battle starts, phalanx are in phalanx mode, guard mode on. This immediately disables running or any kind of charge. So I turn off both functions, run the unit into position, hopefully without having anyone intercept them while they move in position and engage them in standard mode. I then reform the phalanx, and click attack. The unit moves at a snails pace to poke the enemy with it's sticks. By this time the enemy has usually moved out of position. Trying to actually turn the unit, does nothing but cause chaos.

The units should not need this level of micromanagement. It should keep in formation, but keep it's spears up and be able to run until you double click an attack order, then they should charge the enemy, bring the spears down mid formation and smack into them. That's the way it should work, but it doesn't. God knows why.

I was really looking forward to playing as the Selucids or Greek but I'm avoiding them until they do something to fix this. I can't stand the tedium involved with these units.

[barocca]

I actually have some good success with my Phalanx Units,

Always turn OFF Guard Mode

LEAVE them in Phalanx Mode unless you need to cover ground quickly and always change back to Phalanx with PLENTY of time to spare, takes a little time to "form" the Phalanx.

Always DOUBLE CLICK an attack
even though the unit does not "run" it HAS been ordered to Charge and thus you will get any applicable Charge Bonus

Tested
Macedon vs Selucid, 10 Phalanx Pikemen units Each - (580 Denarii each),
no upgrades, Greek Shore Map,
no Flanking in initial attack,
leave general just behind front line until required,
Usual Casualties, 5 to 1 in my favour.

Macedon vs Selucid, 10 Phalanx Pikemen units vs 10 Silver Legion,
no upgrades, Greek Shore Map,
no Flanking in initial attack,
leave general just behind front line until required,
Usual Casualties, 3 to 2 in my favour.
(THIS is a little harder, given AI controlled Silver Legion's ability to fight 2 units at once,
meaning they can throw javelins and charge at one unit, while already fighting h2h with another at the SAME time)


Good Luck
Cheers,
B.

[frogbeastegg]

Ok, thanks some good ideas here. Not sure when I'll be able to try them though. I do hope it isn't as fiddly as it sounds to use a phalanx successfully; I can see myself avoiding them if they are that awkward.

Barocca, the same old thing I've been complaining about ever since I got here. :takes deep breath, wait for it....here it comes: Double click is run, not charge!! Yes, I know it says so in the tutorial but even back in STW units began to charge on their own based on distance to the enemy. Just click once and leave them alone, they will charge. If you make them run to the enemy the change over to charging speed is less noticeable. We had a very long discussion on this in the MTW unit guide thread, and in the beginner's guide thread, and in a few other threads. Suffice it to say the quick summery is thus: double click=run, but sometimes running is good, especially when using cavalry, because it gives them more time to get up to full speed and therefore full bonus. Double click is not charge.

This reminds me I need to add a section about run/charging to the RTW guide...

[Red Harvest]

I've been using them as Germania on VH/VH. What I have been doing is:

1. Arranging my line and marching close to the enemy line (but out of charge range). All in standard formation.
2. Switch to phalanx. (Leave in guard mode.)
3. Select my phalanx line and order it to march as a wall to a point beyond the enemy line (I drag out the line, rather than just clicking.)

Either the enemy charges, or we engage as I march into them. I issue new orders or halt units as needed. I use cav or light units to plug any holes that form as the engagement happens or the phalanx units rotate. The lines stay fairly contiguous like this and do a good job of chewing up the enemy.

I try not to order individual unit attack orders until the lines have engaged, because often times the lines will turn about 45 degrees to plot "intercept" courses as the AI shifts its infantry. The lead correction/intercept course movement is undesirable with a phalanx. I will order one on one attacks do some if I have a lot wider front and can micromanage the engagement, but if the AI starts crossing units (as it likes to do) I have to halt the phalanx and change orders.

Phalanx units require too much micromanagement in RTW. Of course, the same could be said for many other units...

[Spartiate]

I have had similar experiences to those expressed by both DAEVYLL and SOULFLAME with one exception.Just after engaging if there is still a noticeable gap with not much going on i quickly disable the phalanx,right click on the enemy again and then re-enable the phalanx mode.I noticed that this worked for the first time while testing units in custom battle.I was using Spartan Hoplites against full upgrade Sacred Band Infantry.This seemed to deal with the problem at least for me.

[therother]

The game mechanics research of this thread, along with Doug-Thompson's A thin line of spears, have been merged into the new Investigation of the Phalanx formation thread.