Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question

[barocca]

I actually have some good success with my Phalanx Units,

Always turn OFF Guard Mode

LEAVE them in Phalanx Mode unless you need to cover ground quickly and always change back to Phalanx with PLENTY of time to spare, takes a little time to "form" the Phalanx.

Always DOUBLE CLICK an attack
even though the unit does not "run" it HAS been ordered to Charge and thus you will get any applicable Charge Bonus

Tested
Macedon vs Selucid, 10 Phalanx Pikemen units Each - (580 Denarii each),
no upgrades, Greek Shore Map,
no Flanking in initial attack,
leave general just behind front line until required,
Usual Casualties, 5 to 1 in my favour.

Macedon vs Selucid, 10 Phalanx Pikemen units vs 10 Silver Legion,
no upgrades, Greek Shore Map,
no Flanking in initial attack,
leave general just behind front line until required,
Usual Casualties, 3 to 2 in my favour.
(THIS is a little harder, given AI controlled Silver Legion's ability to fight 2 units at once,
meaning they can throw javelins and charge at one unit, while already fighting h2h with another at the SAME time)


Good Luck
Cheers,
B.

[frogbeastegg]

Ok, thanks some good ideas here. Not sure when I'll be able to try them though. I do hope it isn't as fiddly as it sounds to use a phalanx successfully; I can see myself avoiding them if they are that awkward.

Barocca, the same old thing I've been complaining about ever since I got here. :takes deep breath, wait for it....here it comes: Double click is run, not charge!! Yes, I know it says so in the tutorial but even back in STW units began to charge on their own based on distance to the enemy. Just click once and leave them alone, they will charge. If you make them run to the enemy the change over to charging speed is less noticeable. We had a very long discussion on this in the MTW unit guide thread, and in the beginner's guide thread, and in a few other threads. Suffice it to say the quick summery is thus: double click=run, but sometimes running is good, especially when using cavalry, because it gives them more time to get up to full speed and therefore full bonus. Double click is not charge.

This reminds me I need to add a section about run/charging to the RTW guide...

[Red Harvest]

I've been using them as Germania on VH/VH. What I have been doing is:

1. Arranging my line and marching close to the enemy line (but out of charge range). All in standard formation.
2. Switch to phalanx. (Leave in guard mode.)
3. Select my phalanx line and order it to march as a wall to a point beyond the enemy line (I drag out the line, rather than just clicking.)

Either the enemy charges, or we engage as I march into them. I issue new orders or halt units as needed. I use cav or light units to plug any holes that form as the engagement happens or the phalanx units rotate. The lines stay fairly contiguous like this and do a good job of chewing up the enemy.

I try not to order individual unit attack orders until the lines have engaged, because often times the lines will turn about 45 degrees to plot "intercept" courses as the AI shifts its infantry. The lead correction/intercept course movement is undesirable with a phalanx. I will order one on one attacks do some if I have a lot wider front and can micromanage the engagement, but if the AI starts crossing units (as it likes to do) I have to halt the phalanx and change orders.

Phalanx units require too much micromanagement in RTW. Of course, the same could be said for many other units...

[SwordsMaster]

Barocca, the same old thing I've been complaining about ever since I got here. :takes deep breath, wait for it....here it comes: Double click is run, not charge!! Yes, I know it says so in the tutorial but even back in STW units began to charge on their own based on distance to the enemy. Just click once and leave them alone, they will charge. If you make them run to the enemy the change over to charging speed is less noticeable. We had a very long discussion on this in the MTW unit guide thread, and in the beginner's guide thread, and in a few other threads. Suffice it to say the quick summery is thus: double click=run, but sometimes running is good, especially when using cavalry, because it gives them more time to get up to full speed and therefore full bonus. Double click is not charge.

Well, but thats how phalanx works.... And anyway, it might have been changed in RTW.

Actually when I doubleclick on an enemy they shout "Charge", and when I just r-click they shout "Attack".

[frogbeastegg]

Actually when I doubleclick on an enemy they shout "Charge", and when I just r-click they shout "Attack".

Hehe, that's funny - when I do that with Seleucid silver shield pikemen they yell, "attack quickly" and "unleash hell". I also remember units yelling, "charge!" on a single click attack order, though which units escapes me right now. I think the sound bites are just there for general effect, a loose description of what is happening. Well, unless "unleash hell" is intended to describe the phalanx losing cohesion and shuffling to its doom.

I haven't noticed any real difference between single clicking and double clicking with phalanx units in my limited test in a custom battle just now; I want to get them working properly before I do any extensive testing. I do know that for all the other units things work as per MTW. Phalanx could be different, but when most orders result in them committing suicide it is hard to tell if any charging takes place or not.

Hopefully I should have time to test the phalanx attack orders tomorrow; I shall report back when I do.

[Osbot]

In my experience, you do not have to do all these clicky manuevers ;p You can of course if you want to, but, if you're lazy you can simply remove the guard option and they will begin to actually attack. What these other guys are doing, is what you almost would call exploitative game mechanics. Essentially they are maximizing their initial attack by getting as many spears into the enemy formation as possible. I wouldnt call it an exploit, rather imaginative use of the formation ;p

Guard Option for the Phalanx works unlike any other unit. They will not actively engage, they will simply hold their formation and engage anything that comes into their killing zone. About the only time I want them to use this, is when im massively outnumbered in a defensive action, or in siege defence. All other instances, make sure you turn guard off, or your phalanxes will march up and stop just short. Many of the previous posters have mentioned ways that you can force a phalanx in guard mode into attacking, but in my opinion its more trouble than its worth, and in my experience they contort all the faster as they try to regain a defensive position rather than an offensive one.

[Osbot]

Spino, we may have better luck having someone give us new animations for the Phalanx than having CA patch out the shuffle. I've got no clue but I've heard on the TWcenter you can alter/create new animations. So it wouldnt shock me if someone could edit/alter the current animation so the shuffle was gone.

[barocca]

Guard Option for the Phalanx works unlike any other unit. They will not actively engage, they will simply hold their formation and engage anything that comes into their killing zone.

Osbot and I are of the same mind on this one,
turn Guard OFF

[barocca]

...I also remember units yelling, "charge!" on a single click attack order...

...but when most orders result in them committing suicide it is hard to tell if any charging takes place or not...

for the single click order resulting in a charge, cavalry tend to do that but infantry will also do that if the enemy unit is within the "charge range"


I am really having some difficulty understanding what is happening to you,

as Jullii i rely heavily on merc hoplites for destroying heavy cavalry, elite infantry and holding wall breaches.

If I want an enemy line held in place (pinned) Phalanx is IDEAL while my light cav run round the back.

My merc hoplites rapidly get to silver experience...

They dont actually "charge", they cannot run while in Phalanx,
but I have found a double click makes them kill things quicker...

[barocca]

Well, but thats how phalanx works.... And anyway, it might have been changed in RTW.

Actually when I doubleclick on an enemy they shout "Charge", and when I just r-click they shout "Attack".

:-) my point exaclty.

If you leave them to simply march in (single click) they do the Famous Phalanx Shuffle, and not much else...

if you double click they dont do the Shuffle
- well they shuffle a LITTLE bit, but not much AND they are killing merrily away while they do so.
(can't recall if phalanx units yell charge or not - but other units certainly do)

So I too think double click for charge has been changed/fixed for Rome.



ALSO the "drift" has less "impact" if you spread the formation wider than standard, i find 4 ranks works well. (others may have different suggestions)

As for enemy units changing trajectories and breaking your line you want to issue individual orders as close to the enemy as possible, so that enemy units sidestepping does not expose so much of the flanks.

As for being flanked, they are going to be overlapped/wrapped-around by most infantry they encounter (other than phalanx units) so having some light troops to cover the gaps as they appear works wonders for me.


Phalanx units need support, they need decent cavalry or heavy infantry to protect the outer flanks of the line, and they need light fast troops to cover "interior" flanks (the gaps that open up between adjacent phalanx's) as they are exposed.

cheers,
B.

[Spino]

It seems to me that there is one way for us to take much of the frustration out of commanding phalanx units....

I suggest that we petition CA to remove the phalanx shuffle step effect from the game completely. Many are in agreement that as of right now the phalanx formation isn't working too well. Too many people have complained that phalanx units assigned to defend wall breaches, gates & narrow streets often drift so far to their right that they eventually become flanked! The phalanx shuffle has an odd creeping effect that can contort the phalanx formation into odd shapes, thus affecting how it fights. And the shuffle step effect should NOT apply to pikemen who historically did not suffer from 'phalanx drift'.

If we present a sensible, well supported case to CA we just might convince them to get rid of it. I hardly think this feature is going to be missed by the average strategy gamer. I think it's safe to say that more gamers would get upset over the removal of Screeching Women and Wardogs than phalanx drift.