Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question

[hoof]

Another tidbit:

If you find a phalanx unit switching to swords to fight (usually a bad thing), and want them to go back to swords, hit "Halt" a few times. Often they'll reform a pseudo-phalanx (in some random direction), and kill a bunch of the attackers in the process. Very devastating when it works. Obviously this won't work when fighting atop a wall.

Another trick I've used is when the phalanx is fighting, but they are pointing the spears the wrong way, I'll order a rotation to get them to face the way I want them to. Very useful when a phalanx unit is intercepted going through a wall breach before they have time to reform. The unit will usually get a bunch of the spears pointing the right way. If the unit draws swords, try the "Halt" trick mentioned above to get them back into spear-mode.

[Warspite]

As I understand it, the tendency to drift to the right was inherent to the phalanx, as some men involved attempted to squeeze themselves further under the protection of the shield of the man to the right of them, which resulted in the man to his left having to move right to stay under the original man's shield, and hence a chain reaction on down the line. As a result, the entire formation would often shift to the right (I know the phenomenon was touched on in the course of either Stephen Pressfield's "Gates of Fire" or "Tides of War"--unfortunately, I don't recall which right off hand).

This wasn't a good quality, however, and the tendency was drilled out of more experienced and disciplined troops. Has anybody tested to see if there's a correlation between the amount of right-shifting and the level of unit experience? If green troops shift to the right a great deal while seasoned troops are far more stable, this might actually be a rather clever depiction of a very real quirk inherent to the phalanx.

--Warspite

[Woreczko]

Hi

I have a question for you, phalanx experts :)
Did you try to experiment with short_spear hoplites (The ones, with only 2 ranks fighting)? I` ve just discovered this attribute and thought, that it could represent classical hoplites a bit better, as they did not have especially long spears (~2m IIRC).

[jerby]

hi,
i've read somethign else on phalanxes. the better untis where put to the right so that they had cover of other mans shield's or something. when both party's did this they would both try to break threw on the 'weak' side wich caused teh phalanx to turn.

is this true? or did is misconcept it?

[Al Khalifah]

i've read somethign else on phalanxes. the better untis where put to the right so that they had cover of other mans shield's or something. when both party's did this they would both try to break threw on the 'weak' side wich caused teh phalanx to turn.

In classical hoplite tactics, the best units were put on the right to try and stop the shift to the right effect. Experienced troops were less likely to try and shuffle to the right to cover themselves and so they normally stopped the rest of the army from doing so too much.
If the two armies were evenly balanced, then the weaker left of each would normally crumble to the stronger right of the other and the line of battle would turn. If the battle went like this casualties were normally very high for the losing side because they would be cut off from their line of retreat. Such battles could go on for hours.
The assumption of the hoplite general was that you had to hope your left could hold against the enemy long enough for your right to defeat their left and flank them. Casualties here were normally actually lower because the enemy had a direct line of retreat. Such battles could last meer minutes if the opposing side was strong enough - infact there are many instances where lines never even joined because the left of one side would flee in terror and so the right would have to follow suit because to stand and fight would be suicide.

The pike phalanx change all this....

[jerby]

hi again,
is phalanx drift specially programmed by CA or did is it a ( historically accuarte) bug?
in both cases, its needs to be rmoved/fixed. the drift wasn't so much and it decreases gameplay a lot.

[Kraxis]

hi again,
is phalanx drift specially programmed by CA or did is it a ( historically accuarte) bug?
in both cases, its needs to be rmoved/fixed. the drift wasn't so much and it decreases gameplay a lot.

It seems to be deliberate feature and not a bug, but I have not noticed any devs talking about this, so I can't know for sure. And it is most certainly not historically accurate.
There was a drift, but it was significantly less, didn't seem to depend on depth, only affected hoplites and only happened during the march to battle and never in melee (which has been elaborated on quite few times already in this thread).

[Someone Stupid]

For the problem of hoplites, pikemen, etc. not being able to push through a line, I've found that raising the unit's mass helps (ran 6 trials) just now - V1.2. Spartan vs. Hastati. I wanted a unit that could kill quick on offense along with one that would stand it's ground on defence to take less time. It isn't much of an increase when you first make contact (you'll shove the first two lines into one which makes them die rather quick) and it gives it enough to punch completely through a line. You may have to click attack a couple times during that units battle as once you get severely flanked (since a Hastati line is slightly wider, it will happen), they stop for some reason. While a good deal of the "push" comes from dead soldiers, once you break down an enemy formation into about two lines (Hastati being the tested enemy), you can see the Spartans pushing the formation (minus the flanks of it) back at spear point dramatically - I pushed completely through to the point that I had hastati approx. several ranks behind me - still in gaurd mode. Those that aren't in the front of the line will wind up flanking you without even moving.

Mass 1.3: Only the last line will show any real movement from being pushed, but there is some going on (Spartans). No real pushing at all (mass 1) (Militia Hoplites)

Mass 1.99: The last three lines show movement (BARELY), at two it is somewhat noticeable, and by the time you get down to the last line (intact that is), you'll have driven completely through the ranks and you'll have the last line pushed back several lines from it's start, and being pushed back considerably further. (Spartans). Seems a tad better, not much though (Militia Hoplites).

I had thought the mass variable only effected how calavry charges are absorbed - but going by the admittedly few runs I've made in testing, it doesn't seem to be the case. I'd have to run more trials (or someone else would) before I'd decide to stand behind this as fact. Six runs isn't a large sample size admittedly and I could have been getting some happy math in my favor during this.

EDIT: It appears there MIGHT be some correllation - just that all it takes is one to bring the whole line to a stop making testing this a pain. One Hastati past the initial spears stops everything - gaurd mode will prevent this though. Also tried with Militia Hoplites - they didn't really push worth a squat regardless of the setting, and by the time they did, they lost so many that they would route 2-3 lines in at half strength. 4 trials were done with militia hoplites each at 1 and 1.99 mass. Anytime I got penetration with them, they started dying VERY quickly and would route 2-3 lines in.

In the end, I can't truly say if it works or not.

[Lochar]

I started a selucid campaign last night, and it was mainly my first time using phalanx(never bother with merc units b4, too slow for my taste).

I admit these units take patience. I tried advice from here and some things work, albeit since I only had poor morale units, its hard to see if its the unit itself or the programming sometimes.

I have witnessed cavalry charges get stopped but others push there way thru, I have seen my troops use use their spears to punch their way forward, but most of the time any success I have is because I babysit those suckers like crazy. Its bad enough I have crazy Selucid cavalry that HAS to run thru my foots formation when told to stop before hand, but activating/reactivating phalanx,guard mode, is almost making me find a non pike faction to try. But on the plus side I do love watching a phalanx engine goto work when it works right.

I did notice one thing tho, it seems if they get caught off phalanx mode they do try to correct, and it was cool watching my troops try to force some space ahead of them with the swords and if they got the room the pikes would come out. I had a battle last night with 1 column using their pikes and the other 7 still trying to make room with swords. Bad thing is, with another phalanx unit to fight this is costly.

[therother]

The game mechanics research of this thread, along with Doug-Thompson's A thin line of spears, have been merged into the new Investigation of the Phalanx formation thread.