Macedon : Total War

[themonkey]

Macedon: Total War!
This is a Mod in which i plan to make it based in Greece and will have a map similar to Hellenic Total war's
but will also include some of Eygpt and South Italy and Syracuse.

As the Name Suggests this mod is based around the Land of Macedon.
So I would like anyone's help in The Macedonian Factions,which will be rather like the House of Jullii,House of Brutii and House of Scipii but of course their Macedonian!

I hope to still have Some romans i n it but i don't want to include the "Gauis Mauis" Event which reforms the Military for Rome.

Also I'm lost for the Macedonian "Senate" - I was thinking one of the Greek's Greater States - Like Athens or Lakedemoni (Spartans)

Anyone who would help on this is welcome to post here with their Advice and/or Help!,It would be great if some people actually did work with me on this as i'm a Total Newbie to Modding Rome : Total War


I Would love if someone could just change the .tga.dds to .tga's for me and back to .tga.dds when Necessary.

[themonkey]

This is Basically the Map i want to make for this mod:

[themonkey]

or would this be more suitable:

[jtchris]

Well, if CA approaches the RTW expansion as they did MTW, I'm betting a fair number of dollars - at least $49.95 ;-) - that Alexander will be it. They'd be silly to not move in that direction, IMHO.

So this might be one of those unfortunate mods that would be superceded by the "real thing".

[themonkey]

Actually i disagree,if CA approaches R:TW same as M:TW,we're gonna be playing as Attila the hun at the fall of rome as this is very alike VI

[sunsmountain]

Well, if CA decides to take that route i for one will NOT be buying it. A Macedon total war mod is the easiest to make of ALL the mods, imo. It would be pretty lame if CA did it, being the experts.

Simply changing the colors, descriptions and map is more than enough to create an Alexander the Great campaign. All the graphics are there already. Greek CS would have cavalry this time (I wouldn't split them into three), Persia would be huge :).

Let the map have fewer settlements, make it a good campaign for a few factions. Don't bite off more than you can chew.

[themonkey]

yes i do actually plan to change the map a bit so it's smaller but macedon must be abt 3 regions to be made up of



and: I'd not buy a macedon expansion but i'd love a one set with the huns

[themonkey]

Well i'm running inot a problem:
When i give the Julii the Militia Hoplites it crashes

[Renown]

Ok, I'd be interesting in helping out, but only if we rearranged certain things.


One, there is no macedon senate, nor should anything try and replace it.

At the time of Philip II, Macedonia was a land ruled by a King who ruled via personal power.

By Alexander's time, it was much the same. The only thing that could possibly give missions, etc.. would be perhaps Aristotle who taught Alexander, or...

you could play as a general of Alexander, and he gives you missions.. which is also highly unrealistic and unhistorical.

Alexander was first and formost a soldier. He ruled by example, he rarely gave generals the leave to conquer places on their own (mainly sieges, or policing)

In my thought a Macedonia mod would go as such...


Time Period- ca 510-264

The period covers the Argead King Aymntas I, Argead being the dynasty that ruled Macedonia until Alexander's death (one dynasty ruled for approx 200 years, no small feat) until the beginning of the first punic war, where Rome really starts to figure into it.

Factions that should be present- I am a student in Ancient Western History, I could do more research into this area to be more specific... but this is a general outline.

Argead Kingdom- the realm of Macedonia. (Macedonian Kings ruled by personal power, they represented themselves and their army, not really the land, or people they controlled/dominated. (a protectorate of the Persian Empire)

Grecian City-states- including
Athens- a City which was at 510, ruled by a form of democracy, wealthy landowning individuals were citizens, and ran the government. Wealthy citizens formed the Cavalry, middle-class or normal citizens formed the bulk of the army in the form of Hoplites, and the rest of society filled in places in the navy (slaves/foreigners), slingers/archers (mainly thetes- lower class citizens, or residents of Athens who were citizens.) Metes (foreigners) had much greater range of movement and served in cavalry, support roles, or such, were mainly mercs. At 510, Athens would be nominally powerful, and have several island protectorates. Would start off with a rather large navy, very small land force, made up of some cavalry/hoplites and mercs.

Sparta- I know less about Sparta, though it was not a democracy. Instead it was ruled somewhat similarly to Macedonia, yet by several elders/kings instead of one definitive ruler. It's army was at the time, one of the greatest (due to training rather then equipment). Would start off with a small army made up of mostly hoplites, and a very small fleet.

Thebes,Thessaly, Corinth, Argos, Olympia, Eretria, Miletus- on the coast of Asia Minor (must rebel at 499, and start a war between Grecian city states and Persia)

Persian Empire, or the Empire of Iran & Non-Iran

Controls at the start, all of Asia Minor, Egypt, ancient Iraq/Iran and the Hindu Kush Mountain region (Bactria) and parts of north-western India.
EXTREMELY large army, though spread out. (Tactics/quality could be figured out later), Rather large navy.

*MUST figure out how protectorates work, if they aid/help enough in supplying troops/ships, then these would be the best options for Egypt and some other parts of the Persian Empire that had some autonomous control, and broke off during our time line*

**Must find out whether or not factions can emerge in the game, as they were able to in MTW, would be useful to code in rebellions with some set conditions that start a new faction/ God knows Paradox entertainment games are great for this sort of thing**


Map- Must figure out how large a realistic map can be. If possible, a map *that would of course need to be very small on the minimap, or at least scrollable* covering Greece to north-west india, and as south as sudan/perhaps ethiopia, would be useful.

This time period could also contain several historical battles, one of which I am currently working on for a project, The Last Stand of King Leonidas (wouldn't mind any tips/assistance on creating this as well)


Thoughts are Roaring by.

Renown

[dclare4]

Particularly with Colin Farrell's movie coming out some time soon. The buying public will probably say, 'Who the heck is Attilla anyway' - I mean with the Vikings you get a ton of cultural references and movies from Hagar the Horrible to Erik the Red and Leif Erikkson. Attilla is Brumhilda's cat for all they know.

Clare

[themonkey]

Well Colin Farel is a dub and wrong person to play alexander.


And yes i don't think i could find anything to replace the senate but in the campiagn if the senate falls no misssions are given so maybe i could use this to take out the senate

I was reading up about macedonia and i read that they were far less advanced than the greeks in the Periods you depict and i do not no how to represent this,
i may need to make a completely new Macedonian Tech Tree to make this thought come through.

Yes and Persia would need to be major players in this mod as Macedonians and Greeks alike saw persia as an imminant threat and the Persian wars should be at least a trigger in the Campaign ,but how to do this i'm not sure.

[Renown]

Less advanced... well simply give them units which use the horde function instead of phalanxs... or just change their attack/defense modifiers...

I must say... if you make a mod during this time, it would require completely new, everythings..

[Silver Rusher]

I don't get why nobody here takes into account the fact that making a mod without the senate is impossible when they say that kind of thing. A suggestion for a senate:

OK, I can't think of one.

At all.

damn it... seems you're gonna be a bit stuck here. Why not come back to CTW where you belong?

[themonkey]

Actually Renown , the macedonians used the phalanx most but not until later which i don't think i can do , but maybe i could get it to work somehow


What i could do could be somehow to get someone to invade the senate at the start of the game.

And Finally Rusher i'm not out of CTW as this is only planning of this mod

[Renown]

I was unaware of the particulars of the modding in idea with the senate..

Persia could then use the senate.. have it as an Imperial rule type thing... Emperor gives orders (if possible)

[themonkey]

Renown that's a brilliant idea ,or the Greeks could use a senate of the cities Leaders.but for this to set in historically i'd have to move forward the mod a few hundred years

[Renown]

If you advance the time period

Could form an Achean League or such..


Make Athens the Senate. And make certain citystates, in the league, follow Athen's orders. (or if possible edit the map so a city can be formed near athens or something, and call it the league capital, not exactly historical... but it would fit to some degree... as Athens itself was lead by a small group (democracy heh!) of people.

[themonkey]

Here is who io think should be Playable Factions:

Macedonia
Tracia
Illyria
Persia
Sparta
Corinth
Aetolia
Egypt(most likely)
India (don't have a clue of the Empires who led these )

If you think anyone else should be playable and tell me so

[Renown]

There were several local indian king's, but the most famous was Porus, could make him the leader.

Arabia should be a seperate nation with wealthy coastal provinces, plus very LARGE and DANGEROUS desert provinces inland. (Unlike some common misconceptions, Arabia was never conquered by Alexander, he only planned to take it.

What time line are we going with? So I may recommend others or such..

[themonkey]

I believe the only Dates i should use would be:
490 : After Darius Invades and fails
480 : Xerxes Attacks greece ,and fails

[Accounting Troll]

In view of the time period you are considering, have you thought about a Phoenican Senate? The Phoenicians were a loose collection of allied city states who controlled much of the Mediterranean by around 500 BC. The cities of Tyre, Sidon and important colonies like Carthage and Lilybaeum could be seperate Phoenician factions.

You would probably need the map to extend as far west as Sicily and modern Tunisia, and the Mediterranean region should have small coastal provinces and large inlnd provinces.

[Bacchon]

Suggestion for the senate and/or other Roman factions if you don't want them in the way:

Just give them one-unit armies at the beginning of the game with no cities, and they will immediatly die off at the beginning of the first turn, thus fulfilling the need to have them in the game, while removing all the hardcoded mechanics that come with them. You will get "Faction Destroyed" messages every time, but that's no big deal. Even though you lose 4 factions, you're still left with 16 to work with, which should be lots for a map this size.

The other thing to consider is the victory condition of conquering Rome. I would suggest you make Rome the Macedonian capital, that way they don't have to worry about it, while the other factions must take it in order to stave off the conquering Macedonians. Or make it the Persian capital, to insure AI Macedonians will concentrate on conquering the Persians (in theory), and making playing as the Macedonians a little more historical.

Cheers,

Bacchon

-edit-

Oh, and another thing. If you end up using the Roman factions (perhaps as the Phoenicians as Accouting Troll seems to suggest), you can avoid the Marius Reforms event by disallowing the Imperial Palace, which it's tied to. To maintain the same tech-tree, just create a new building that is exactly identical to the Imperial Palace, except called something else.

-further edit-

Gah, check my post here.

[themonkey]

Yes i might use a map similar to the map from Rise of Nations : Thrones and Patriots Alexander The Great Campaign , which streches from Carthage,Italy,Sicily to India and China

This gives me these factions:
Romans
Macedonia
Greek cities (not one faction but seperate )
Thrace
Persia
Pheonican States
Indian Tribes (at the moment one faction )

And other Rebel Factions such as Chinese



Roman Units:
rome will be all Pre- Gais Miauis Event Units so same tech tree but without imperial palace.

[Accounting Troll]

Sorry for not sending this information in a PM, but I kept getting an error message come up when I tried.

I've looked into the Phoecinian tech tree, and I don't think it will present any real problems. I dipped into Herodotus and a couple of other books of mine, and I found a lot of information about the phoecinians at www.phoenicia.org

The Phoenicians should have the same culture and architectual style as the Carthaginians. Their technology tree should be the same except for the following changes:

Phoenicia and Carthage had the same religion, however the Phoenician name for Tanit was Astarte. Baal, Melqart and Astarte were the main Phoenician deities and they had the same responsibilities as they had in Carthage. Melqart was the patron deity of Tyre, so it would be historically accurate if Tyre starts off with a shrine or temple to Melqart.

The Phoenicians should be able to upgrade awsome temples to pantheons. This is because each city liked to cater to the spiritual needs of foreign traders, and the Phoecinian religion both influenced and was influenced by the religions of Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Caananites.

The execution square and its upgrades should be replaced with a Greek style odeon and its upgrades for two reasons:
- Like other propogandists, classical Greek writers liked to exaggerate stories of despotic rule in Persia and its satellites. Phoenicia was an intellectual and trading centre, something you wouldn't get with a secret police causing people who say the wrong thing to 'dissappear'.
- Phoenicia is now known to have had a strong literary tradition. The majority of their literature involved religion, but some of it was intended as entertainment.

I think it would probably be a good idea if the Phoenicians and the other civilized factions have the ability to upgrade roads to highways, otherwise it will be too difficult to conquer and administrate an empire the size of Persia.

The Phoenician army should not have any heavy infantry or heavy cavalry, so they should not be able to build the level five barracks, stable or archery range.


The classical writers don't seem to have had much to say about the Phoecinian army between 500BC and the time of Alexander the Great. They did breed elephants, but I don't know if they intended to use them in war or just as beasts of burden. They did use chariots, along with almost everybody else in the near east. The chariots would have been used in a frontal assault on the enemy battle line at the beginning of the battle to disrupt their formation before the infantry clashed, and not to hit the enemy flank or rear. Charioteers seem to have been regarded as unglamarous auxiliaries at this time.

The Phoecinians should have below average cavalry and infantry - they should have to depend on numbers to beat Macedonian pikemen and heavy cavalry. The lack of arable land made horse farming difficult for the Phoecinians anyway.

The main Phoecinian settlements should be able to build triremes from the beginning of the campaign, and they should start with a decent number of ships.

The Phoecinians should be able to recruit a large selection of mercenaries in their homeland as historically their army seems to have been heavily dependent on mercenaries.

[Renown]

Phoenicia would not be a good choice.

Phoenicia was never one single territory, instead it was a bunch of city-states, kind of like Greece, though they focused more on trade, then anything else.

Their armies were weak, and easily beaten, for they relied mostly on their navy.

When they were actually attacked, they fell easily. They fell so easily, and quickly, that a visiting official from one of their colonies, saw and took note.

He ran back home and informed his colony that their home-city, was now under control of another power. This colony then began to develop its own military and even more advanced navy, of course, the colony was Carthage.

Phoenicia thus was never a single power, and were extremely weak.. they would be pointless to have due to the fact that gameplay would require them to be heavily modded against historical accuracy.

[dclare4]

The Senate I think doesn't need to be a senate in the Roman sense per se but even just faction thats superior in hierarchy like it could be run by Philip of Macedon and you can play Alexander or conversely it could be run by Alexander and you can take the role of one of the Diadochi.

just a thought,
Clare

[Al Khalifah]

How about this setup as an idea with factions in their groups along with their 'token' unit if applicable.

DELIAN FACTIONS
-------
Corinth
Athens
Thebes (Sacred Band)
The Delian factions are all similar in their foundation of a Hoplite core designed to win battles in the meat grinder with lighter auxilaries to protect their flanks. Their navies should be first rate. Essentially these factions are to replace the 3 Roman factions from the vanilla game. A senate faction would be some embodiment of the Delian League that was created for mutual defence after the defeats of the Persians.

GREEK FACTIONS
-------
Lakedaemon (Enomita)
Very small but very powerful army composed of Spartans with Helot auxilaries. VERY limitted cavalry if any.
Macedon (Macedonian Phalanx)
Weak, almost Barbarian style low level units, but an excellent upper tech tree as Macedon was a culture that became civilised over this period. Pike phalanx and Macedonian phalanx (superior to others). Excellent medium cavalry. Not much archery but should have excellent anti-building siege engines.
Latinium (Legion)
Again, a weak low level tech tree that peaks on the higher levels with the early Roman legionary troops (as in Pre-Marian Reform).
(Phoenecia)
If required should have superior navy and combine the Greek unit style with middle-eastern and African unit types - although not high level units of either.

EASTERN
-------
India (Indian War Elephant)
Exotic tribesmen units with war elephants.
Persia (Immortals)
Vast range of units reflecting the vast range of territories that this empire controlled although distinctly lacking in armoured troops or heavy infantry. Good light cavalry, elephants and archery.

OTHERS FOR CONSIDERATION
-------
Thracia
Illyria
Aetolia
Arabia

[Renown]

I still dont like the idea of Phoenicia.

Most of the territory around/near their cities wasn't even theirs.

I think Egypt would be a good addition, though a province of Persia, they were rather autonomous.

Thracia and Illyria are a must, and remember, at least atm Macedonia is the #1 power we should focus on, so their traditional enemies needs to be included.

[The Rough One]

The Persians should be used as the roman replacement with Babylon as the Senate hq with some Smaller Factions led by families of Officials answering to the King I.E Senate.

Also plzz use the First map themonkey plzz as it more correct.

Looking forwards to the mod.

[Al Khalifah]

Here's the area you seem to want to cover (though I'd extend it slightly westwards to give you Rome as well).



The factions list could be as I said before, though the Nubians, Rus, Scythians and Sarmatians could also be added to that list to stop Persia being TOO much of a superpower in the East.

Hope you can make some definate decisions soon.