Macedon : Total War

[themonkey]

Thanks Al Kalifah ,what you said is uuseful
but do you have any concept art of these factions?



Actually Al kalifah you're map is perfect and need not be extended

[Al Khalifah]

Because of the nature of this mod, quite a lot of the 'concept' art is already in the game. The advantage of this mod over the more Totally Converted mods is that it will be possible to build a reasonable looking working model of quite a few of the factions while only having to slightly scratch the surface of possible modification. A lot of the later units are already in the game (as early units).
This will allow the game mechanics to take priority at first with a vast host of other units to be added later for non-covered factions.

Some ideas though. Macedon should use this symbol:

The Argead Star, rather than the Greek letter in the vanilla game for two reasons. 1) Its far more accurate and better and they are the title faction 2) If you choose to include the Spartans then they should use the Lamba symbol and the two would look too similar.

Athenians:

[Rosacrux redux]

I think this would make for a great mod - it has potential - but there are several problems. There seems to be a lack of targeting. You seem to aim for a "macedonian" mod, but If you start a bit before or around the Persian wars, the Macedonian Greeks won't survive the first decade, as they were only a minor player of the Greek world for the whole 5th century BC. During this timeframe, the two great players are Athens (Athenian confederation, with all Aegean Islands, most Ionian cities and many others) and Sparta (Peloponesean league). Both Greek powers outmatched even the Persian mega-empire during this timeframe and only their mutual destruction during the Peloponesian war has given the chance to secondary Greek powers (like Macedonia in the Balkans and Syracusae in the West) to rise and become the strongest Greek states. This process fulfilled it's potential with Philipos and Alexandros and the creation of the huge hellenistic world.

You cannot - with the current game mechanics - portray such a vast geopolitical switch. You could if you were modding a Paradox game (yes, I am a great fan of all of them, although after 6 months of intensive Victoria playing, I am solely playing RTW now, due to lack of enough free time) but not RTW.

So, if you want a historical Macedonian Mod, you have to start later (around the end of the Peloponesian war, maybe, something like 410 BC), and allow the Macedonian to become gradually a superpower and challenge their Greek kinsmen to the south.

Otherwise, you can opt for an even later start (372 or such) to have three Greek confederations (centered around Theba, Sparta and Athens) a fourth centered around Syracusae (holder of 3/4 of Sicily and half of southern Italy, at around 380 BC) and the two Greek kingdoms of the North (Macedonia and Epirus) with the first becoming very strong by that time.

A third option would be to start a few years later, when Philipos rose to power in Macedonia. You could then have the Macedonians being extremely strong from the start, while the weakened Persian empire wouldn't pose a threat for the determined player (in the 5th century Persia was still THE superpower, despite having lost the wars against the Greeks - the Greeks controlled only a 5% of former Persian territory, namely the Asia Minor coast which was inhabited by Greeks anyway, and parts of Karia and Lykia inland, with vast hellenized populations).

Anyways, I know it's a tough decision and I know it's gonna be a great mod if you get it going. I can offer some historical advice, if you need one, but very little beside that (I have seized aiding with the Hellenic TW because of lack of free time).

Good luck!

[themonkey]

Yeh i spotted that problem while reading through Macedon's History last night and say around 5TH Century BC Macedon was all but swallowed into a Greek State so i will probably have to change the starting date
Kalifah ,i had that symbol thing sorted out before but thanks for the athenean symbol

[Al Khalifah]

The best start date IMHO would be 367. In 367, Perdiccas III had taken the throne after killing his own brother King Ptolemy. Perdicass III's other brother was Philip II father of Alexander the Great (unfortunately he cannot be accurately included from the start in this setup as he was born 3 years after his uncles death).

The Greek city states were weakenned by this point but by no means anaemic. Macedon was by no means dominant at this point, there had been 5 kings and a civil war in the last 20 years, but was emerging.

Persia was still the dominant force in the world at this point, despite many recent setbacks they would soon reclaim the Greek territories in Asia after this date.

Lots of battles to be fought at this point as the old empires declined and the new ones rise.

[Rosacrux redux]

The best start date IMHO would be 367. In 367, Perdiccas III had taken the throne after killing his own brother King Ptolemy. Perdicass III's other brother was Philip II father of Alexander the Great (unfortunately he cannot be accurately included from the start in this setup as he was born 3 years after his uncles death).

The Greek city states were weakenned by this point but by no means anaemic. Macedon was by no means dominant at this point, there had been 5 kings and a civil war in the last 20 years, but was emerging.

Persia was still the dominant force in the world at this point, despite many recent setbacks they would soon reclaim the Greek territories in Asia after this date.

Lots of battles to be fought at this point as the old empires declined and the new ones rise.

This starting date is appropriate. You are partly right about the Persian empire too, since they got themselves seriously weakened after 350 BC, trying to put down the Egyptian revolt that swept the land for three decades (come and go) and ended only just before Alexander made his move into Persia.

Truth is that real Macedonian power rose with Philipos (he reformed the military, seized the gold mines to finance his expeditions, tripled the land of his kingdom, secured the northern borders by defeating the Illyrian tribes, subdued the Thracian tribes and "united" the Greeks under his banner - truly an extraordinary ruler).

The Greek city states in 367 were fairly strong (Thebes) not-so-strong (Sparta) or weak (Athens) and only the confederations that formed around this date, had some potential to actually confront the Macedonian power. The Thessalian Greeks had a confederation of sorts, but they were traditional allies of Macedonia and always sided with them in the struggles for the control of the Greek world. In the times of Philipos they became formally and more or less willingly, a part of the Macedonian kingdom.

[Al Khalifah]

Truth is that real Macedonian power rose with Philipos (he reformed the military, seized the gold mines to finance his expeditions, tripled the land of his kingdom, secured the northern borders by defeating the Illyrian tribes, subdued the Thracian tribes and "united" the Greeks under his banner - truly an extraordinary ruler).

Exactly the reason why I like this start date, because it would let the (Macedonian) player take the head of the Kingdom at the time when it was really beginning to become a dominant force in the world. The Macedonian army was by no means well organised at this point and still contained many barbarian elements that wouldn't be removed until Philips reign. Therefore the challenge for the player would be to fight off the Greek cities allied against him until he/she has developed their military to a point where they can make a real challenge against them as Philip did. The player would also need to (like Philip) secure the gold mines that would start the campaign in Thracian held territory to gain a source of income. From here the player would be in a position to cross the Helespont and challenge the Persian empire. Essentially the player can mold the Argead dynasty in his own graven image.

Macedonia should have some territory but their cities except for the capital should be under-developed.

Players of the Greek factions would be wise to try and destroy the Macedonains before they are able to rise to any real dominance, but there should be enough potential enemies to stop a player from being able to focus enough force on them to totally eradicate the Argeads. The Greek cities should have numerically small, yet strong starting armies. They should also have a limitted amount of territory yet good starting cities.

Persian players should have the same experience as playing the Holy Roman Empire in Medieval - a massive strong Empire but enemies on all sides. Their major cities should be well developed and their armies should be large yet mostly light infantry and archers.

Rosacrux you seem to know your stuff... do you think there should be an indepedant Egyptian faction in this game to represent the rebellious element in the country - the Persians had still not totally subdued the rebellions even by 367. I am unsure because if they are included they are either likely to become too powerful or get annihilated quickly.
Also what about Epirius? Though to leave them out would be unrealistic, chances are they would end up constantly fighting the Macedonians, which just wouldn't have happened - Alexander and Alexander were related and good friends (Alexander The Great's dream of conquering the Rising Sun and Alexander of Epirius conquering the Setting Sun).
Rome???

[Rosacrux redux]

Exactly the reason why I like this start date, because it would let the (Macedonian) player take the head of the Kingdom at the time when it was really beginning to become a dominant force in the world. The Macedonian army was by no means well organised at this point and still contained many barbarian elements that wouldn't be removed until Philips reign. Therefore the challenge for the player would be to fight off the Greek cities allied against him until he/she has developed their military to a point where they can make a real challenge against them as Philip did. The player would also need to (like Philip) secure the gold mines that would start the campaign in Thracian held territory to gain a source of income. From here the player would be in a position to cross the Helespont and challenge the Persian empire. Essentially the player can mold the Argead dynasty in his own graven image.

Macedonia should have some territory but their cities except for the capital should be under-developed.

Players of the Greek factions would be wise to try and destroy the Macedonains before they are able to rise to any real dominance, but there should be enough potential enemies to stop a player from being able to focus enough force on them to totally eradicate the Argeads. The Greek cities should have numerically small, yet strong starting armies. They should also have a limitted amount of territory yet good starting cities.

Persian players should have the same experience as playing the Holy Roman Empire in Medieval - a massive strong Empire but enemies on all sides. Their major cities should be well developed and their armies should be large yet mostly light infantry and archers.

Rosacrux you seem to know your stuff... do you think there should be an indepedant Egyptian faction in this game to represent the rebellious element in the country - the Persians had still not totally subdued the rebellions even by 367. I am unsure because if they are included they are either likely to become too powerful or get annihilated quickly.
Also what about Epirius? Though to leave them out would be unrealistic, chances are they would end up constantly fighting the Macedonians, which just wouldn't have happened - Alexander and Alexander were related and good friends (Alexander The Great's dream of conquering the Rising Sun and Alexander of Epirius conquering the Setting Sun).
Rome???

Starting from the easy part, Rome. The Roman strenght in the West was not really anything beyond that of a quite strong city state (like, say, Spart in the end of the Peloponesian way - they had a network of allies, consolidated power in their lands and slowly making inroads to other lands. The Spartan effort to "liberate" Asia Minor from the Persian was stopped by the Persian gold - they financed their rivals and started the second large civil strife in Greece, the Korinthian war - but Rome didn't have any Persian empire nearby). I think it is easy to portray this in-game.

I do suggest the inclusion of Syracusae. During the whole 3rd century it was the strongest Greek city state, controlling the largest part of Magna Graecia and being a serious contestant for Carthago, before Rome came into the picture.

Including an Egyptian faction shall give a meaning of life to the endless horde of circus units CA has created for the vanilla game, but little beyond. Give Persia one well developed province of Egypt (to portray that they were the nominal rulers of Egypt) and the rest would serve their purpose better as strong (thous not easy to take out) rebels. That is my opinion, of course. The Egyptians rebelled in the second half of the 5th century every decade or so and from 380 on constantly.

Epirus (Kingdom of Molosses would be an appropriate formal name) can be a medium-sized, completely underdeveloped (thous not dangerous for Macedonia or the city states in the first 10-15 years of the game) state, an ally or even a Macedonian protectorate (is it possible to start a country as protectorate of another?).

Of course, we all know that protectorate is broken...

[Al Khalifah]

At present it doesn't seem possible to set diplomatic arrangements between the factions pre-game. The only exception to this is that by default: The senate faction and three other factions are all allied. Thought needs to be given over which if any in game factions share this special relationship. The mechanic of it is that:
- There is one controlling faction that cannot expand its territory.
- There are three (or fewer) initially co-operating factions that eventually will fight each other if one becomes too dominant but not until then.
Do any factions of this period have this relationship? The Greek confederations possibly.

[themonkey]

In the game when playing i have noticed that certain factions are more likely to ally than others so we may be able to use this to make Macedon and Epirus allies early.

[themonkey]

Macedonian Symbol:

[themonkey]

As my signature picture shows ,it would be wrong to think Macedon did not learn from Greece's Greatest Troops ,here showing that a form of hoplite was in use in the macedonian army

[Rosacrux redux]

As my signature picture shows ,it would be wrong to think Macedon did not learn from Greece's Greatest Troops ,here showing that a form of hoplite was in use in the macedonian army

This looks like a rather fantasy depiction of the Macedonian phalanx, if anything.

Truth is that the Macedonian, despite being Greek, have never utilized hoplite warfare. That wasn't because they couldn't or wouldn't, but because hoplites existed only in city-states: the hoplites were the free citizen with full civil rights and prosperous enough to purchase the basic hoplite gear (thorax, aspis-hoplon, spear and the helmet - greaves were optional usually, even thorax became obsolete later on). The hoplite is tied together with the polis, the Greek model of a city state. Not only Greek cities fielded hoplites (Karian, Lykian, Latin and Carthagenian cities also fielded hoplites - Carthago herself until the times of the Punic wars equipped their free-men fighting force as hoplites) but the Greeks were the best hoplites.

The Macedonian society, being a completely agrarian, sort-of-feudal society (large estates worked by semi-independant subjects, with a "aristocratic" family as landlord) with only very few real cities, did never develop the "polis" ideals and thous never fielded hoplites.

They used some mimick hoplites, but of small value. Their true strength was usually their cavalry (which they developed under the heavy influence of their neighbours Thessalians) and they fielded large numbers of light infantry (skirmishers, peltasts, slingers, mediocre archers).

Philipos was the "creator" of the pike phalanx (although he probably aquired the pike by one of the northern neighbours of Macedonia) but his true genious was the consolidation of a true combined arms system, putting heavy infantry (pikemen - phalangites) light infantry (skirmishers, peltasts, archers) and all sorts of cavalry (light - Prodromoi - and heavy - heteroi) to work effectively together.

The Macedonian army under Alexander utilized southern Greek hoplites and some historians have reasons to believe that the cream of the cream of the Macedonian army (the hypaspists) were armed as hoplites, although most accounts seem to point out that in most battles they operated like standard pike infantry.

As I said, this mod would have great potential, but you have to make things right if you wish to fulfil it's potential.

Al Khalifah

Too bad... then it's going to be rather tough. No, the Greek city states were even the day before Philipos crushed them, divided as always. appr. 1/3 of the Greeks firmly believed Philipos should be the leader of a Greek alliance, while the rest wanted to remain independant city-states, minding their own business.

If you turn those into the "Roman" faction, they'll be too strong to beat combined together. If you make them weak, then it'll be unhistorical, not to mention not fun to play with them.

I'll try to think of alternatives, ok?

Regards

[Renown]

Well... I have to disagree with the fact that macedonian's never used hoplites..

they in fact did, though they didn't limit their troops like the greeks did, and the Hoplite ideal never had the prominence.

The greek's main hoplite form was Eight ranks deep, and however many men they had, they would then spread them across,

Macedonia had 16 ranks deep, which is why their hoplites won any battle against the greeks.


I got this info from

Eugene N. Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon (NJ: Princeton, 1990)

though certainly their hoplites took a back stage outside Greece.

Persia should definetely have a large cavalry force, of elite (impetous) heavy cavalry.

They should have a very high shock value, with a signifigantly lower melee value.

Cavalry was useless in a melee confrontation, their power resided soley in their charge.

This was due to the fact that they simply couldn't stay on their horses in melee battle, they didn't have stirrups, and no stability.

(the lack of stirrups was in every army at this time)

[Ellesthyan]

Actually it is possible to mod in starting relations between factions: it has been done in Rome: Total Realism 3.2 with the Germans and the Gauls starting at war, the Numidians and the Carthaginians allied, etc. I suggest you check out how they did it.

[Al Khalifah]

The Macedonians did use standard Hoplites, but this was only because later on they were able to field Greek units as allies. The Macedonain Pike Phalanx did not use standard Hoplite tactics:

The standard Hoplite tactic of the Greek polis was to engage the enemy with light forces and missile troups to weaken them and disrupt their battle line and then to bring the Hoplites to bear at the decisive moment of the battle. The Hoplites would press forward, using their large heavy shields to push the soldiers infront of them forwards while pelting the enemy with thrown spears and trying to inflict melee damage on the enemy using overhand spear thrusts. Essentially, the Hoplite Phalanx would try to inflict non-fatal wounds with spears so that when pushed far enough wounded enemies on the ground could be finished off with the short sword. Battles were won and lost with the Hoplite Phalanx. The Spartans often practiced this pressing tactic by forcing younger troops to knock down large trees by the sheer force of the Phalanx press (many died due to thorax damage). The Spartan short-sword was affectionately known as the lizard-sticker because of its usage.

The purpose of the pike phalanx was to hold the enemy infantry in place long enough for the flanking cavalry to be brought into position to strike the decisive blow into the enemy flank or rear (this type of tactic would be repeated nearly 2 millenia later in the Enlgish Civil war with only the addition of weak musket and cannon fire). The Pike Phalanx did not use the pressing tactic, but rather relied on the spearmanship of its soldiers. Because the first 4 ranks would present their pikes against the enemy, in order to engage a pike phalanx with a sword would require a regiment to manouver through 4 layers of thrasing pikes.

In the vanilla game, all Hoplite/Phalanx units seem to use the pike phalanx approach to combat which is grossly innacurate. For this mod:
- The Greek polis(s) should use the Hoplite approach
- The Macedonians should use the Pike Phalanx approach (though this should require some city development to reflect the early technological deffecit of the Macedonian state at large)
- The Early Romans and Eastern Greek cities should use a form of Hoplite approach (minus the pressing tactic) with the tower shield. The tower shield was the effective counter to the later pike phalanx approach - although it would have been much less effective against the pressing tactic of early phalanx formations.
- The Persians didn't use hoplites, save the Greek mercanaries lured to their ranks by the promise of gold or the threat of the destruction of their homes.
- Other Eastern civilisations never used hoplites.

Hope this is all helping.

[tommh]

Some general observations :

At this period the Greek City states were split it associations of City states. I would suggest making the Senate the Oracle at Delphi since control of the Oracle would be essential for anyone who wanted to unite the Hellenic world. Make three leagues the families.

I also wouldn't worry about having so many playable factions. Unless you stretch the map to include Etrusca, the early Roman Republic, and Carthage the only real players are Persia, the Greeks, and Macedon.

I wouldn't worry so much about historical details as those can be ajusted. Just get your basics down. Especially the map and the factions. Use existing units to start (you have good analogues of pretty much every unit in the campaign.).

Good luck!

[Al Khalifah]

I wouldn't worry so much about historical details as those can be ajusted. Just get your basics down. Especially the map and the factions. Use existing units to start (you have good analogues of pretty much every unit in the campaign.).

Like I said earlier... Finalise the important details now and start testing with existing units and textures and then develop the mod from there.

The best bit of advice I can give at this point is this: Don't worry about being TOO historically accurate. Get the basic details right and work to give each civilisation a unique feel that reflects the historical civilisation it is simulating. There's no point pondering whether the Thebans or the Thessalians or the Trojans deserve to be there or not at this stage, for now just go along with your base idea and see how things develop. Age of Empires was a great game, but in terms of history it was downright outrageous.
In the end, the true judge of how good your mod is will not be how historically accurate it is, but how fun it is to play.

[CrusaderMan]

You could use the oracle of Delphi as a senate.

[themonkey]

A new member on the team - spartan has done this camp map:

This is only an early version

[Al Khalifah]

Nice Map

[Patricius]

Keeping the Senate with Macedon is something that should be considered. According to F.W. Walbank (The Hellenistic World pp 79-85) there was a limited element of popular right through assemblies of leading men. Another aspect was that the Macedonians as a sort of commonwealth and the sovereign were treated as distinct. The army acted as a court in certain instances. Unlike other later Hellenistic monarchies and Persia there was a national monarchy with checks on its power through its nobility and cities. Now there was not a regular assembly like with Athens, but a distinction between king and kingdom such that some sort of assembly might work in the game for Macedonia.

Alternatively, and far better, in my opinion given the hardcoded characteristics of the Senate, an Athenian faction could give the missions to a faction wishing to lead the Greeks. Outlawing could be taken as a rebellion of the Greeks against its putative overlord.

This would work particularly well if the start date postdates Alexander and is place in the Hellenistic age. The Seleucids, the Ptolemies and the Antigonids or Macedon all fought over leadership of Greece. If one of factions wished to lead the Greeks, they would have to impress the leading city of the Greeks, Athens. It is just a basic idea, but it seems relatively simple and robust. The hardcoded blocked against rebellion and genuine warfare by the Senate would cause great problems if a larger faction acts as the Senate.

[Macedon_King]

Its important to separate Macedon with any greek states.

The most important being that Greeks never considered Macedonians as Greeks
and the second that the greeks sided with rome to remove the macedonian yoke.

[Al Khalifah]

Is anything happening with this mod at the moment?
I just haven't heard anything in a while and can only assume that it is either in progress or has been abandoned.

[themonkey]

Well i've been dealing with a hacker who took my forums and i have a fault with rome ctding

[chef4fun2]

So There not much going on in this mod? I have been reading a bio on Alexander the Great. And have some ideas. I have a the senate problem fixed and would like to help. I have no software exp. But can help in any other way. If this mod is dead please let us know. I think this would be the way CA should do the Xp! But who knows.

[themonkey]

So There not much going on in this mod? I have been reading a bio on Alexander the Great. And have some ideas. I have a the senate problem fixed and would like to help. I have no software exp. But can help in any other way. If this mod is dead please let us know. I think this would be the way CA should do the Xp! But who knows.

The mod aint dead just i was away and we have got a forum now but its not finished yet and soon we'll have a site

[themonkey]

The mod aint dead just i was away and we have got a forum now but its not finished yet and soon we'll have a site

[chef4fun2]

Thank you I glad it is not dead. If you need help I can do research and beta testing. Like I said I was a fix for the senate. The greek city states had a Hellenic league both Alexander and Phillip had to get there ok to invade Asia minor. Now grant you they were both head of the league at there time so getting the ok was not hard but Alexander had to get there ok to get ships to croos over to Asia minor. I just finished Alexanders bio from Peter Green. So I hope I can be some help for you. Please let me know.

[themonkey]

we'll have forums up in a day
and a team member is building the site :)
I wanna know how do i take screenshots?